Spyderco karambit full of surprises

Well, I've been fiddling with my new Spyderco karambit for five days now. And I must admit, it is getting easier to use. For one thing, you can open the blade partway and then, with a flick of your wrist, snap it open completely. That's a big plus. With my small hands, having to open the blade all the way with my thumb simply took too long. In a self-defense situation, I'd probably be mincemeat. Now I can whip out the blade in about a second.

I'm also starting to get a little more comfortable wielding the handle. I still don't see how you could spin the thing and switch from forward to reverse grips in mid-spin, as Ernest Emerson does in his videos when demonstrating his version of the karambit. Perhaps that has to do with Emerson's design, but I strongly suspect it has a lot more to do with Emerson's consummate skill. If anyone skilled at using a karambit and who owns a Spyderco karambit is able to regularly spin it and switch grips in mid-spin, I'd love to know the details. As for me, I must disengage either my pinky or index finger from the finger hole in the handle and use my other hand to reposition the knife to change the grip.

I also don't get the reverse grip on this knife. When holding the knife in your right hand in a reverse grip and slashing from right to left, that makes sense, because your wrist and forearm are protected. However, when slashing from left to right, major blood vessels are exposed and vulnerable to an attacker's slash. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong. If so, I can't figure out what it is. Any experts out there who could offer some advice?

Oh, and I have have figured out how to hold the knife in my fist with my index finger in the handle's finger hole so that the entire knife--blade and handle--extends out from my wrist and the knife is reasonably stable in that position. It still isn't completely stable. The finger hole in the handle is simply too large for that--at least for me. But it seems pretty secure. I guess I'm just going to have to slash something like a cushion or sack of potatoes and see how it feels. The blade is so wickedly sharp that it shouldn't take a rock-solid grip for it to do its thing. But right now, this is just speculation on my part. Anybody out there who has actually field-tested this knife with his index finger in the handle and the entire knife extending out from his fist?
 
hey there, I think the extended grip variant is only useful if you do it like this:

- swing to extended

- hook around bodypart of BG (as in hold it to the side of his neck so that the tip is near his spine or as in between BG's legs)

- pull towards you ( ie cutting the side of BG's neck or pull up and cut, well... anything between his legs)

can be seen in Ernies vids, too. there he also attacks the eyebrows ( :eek: nasty :eek: )

this is the only way I can imagine it working.

Ookami

PS IMHO making multiple fullcircle-spins with the karambit as in Ernies vids serves no useful purpose except being flashy. I think it is pure horse dung, because you can hurt yourself a lot with this; and it is irresponsible to show such folly. spinning is only useful as in making half-spins to change between extended to normal position. O.
 
Dear Ookami:

What you write makes a lot of sense, although, as Voltaire once quipped, "Common sense is not so common."

I don't have the guts, skill, or stupidity to try spinning the Spyderco karambit. I've studied Ernest Emerson's videos (well, the 10-second clips, anyway). Somehow, in the midst of spinning, he is able to switch grips, but as far as I can tell (which isn't too easy, as Emerson's movements are lightning quick), spinning the knife per se has little or nothing to do with changing grips.

At this point, I've tried moving the karambit in slo-mo just about every way I can think of, but any way you slice it (no pun intended), to switch from a forward to a reverse grip, you need to remove your index finger from the hole in the handle, switch grips manually, and reinsert your index finger. I don't see how spinning facilitiates this maneuver in the least. But you're right: it does look cool.

While I'm getting fairly adept at opening the knife, closing is still a trial. There just isn't enough of the linerlock exposed to get a good enough thumb purchase to close the thing as effortlessly as it should close. However, I still can't open the knife with the speed and ease of other Spydercos, or the Emerson Commander, my EDC. Those can be opened and closed in a fraction of a second.

I will say this: the Spyderco karambit comes with the sharpest blade of any knife I own out of the box. The other day, just in the process of normal opening and closing, I got bit on my thumb. It was nothing, just a pinprick, really. Yet now, three days later, whenever I remove the Band-Aid, the sucker continues to bleed. I'm not complaining. I say this admiringly. This is what you want in a self-defense weapon: results.

I've given up on the extended grip. I can't make a fist tight enough to keep the knife from wobbling. I could see an assailant grabbing the knife by the handle, twisting it, breaking my index finger, and ripping it out of my grasp. This is a huge disappointment: the primary reason I invested in a karambit was to be able to wield it in the extended grip, and it was my understanding that the ability to do this was one of its primary benefits.

Hotwriter
 
LOL, ya I want to see the guys hand after he tries to yank that thing out of your hand. He'll get the knife and drop it from all the blood on his hand.


Anyway, I wanted to know if after they short time you've had it the knife can be flicked open? By that I mean drawing the thing and snapping your hand with a little twist thrown it for added pull. Is it possible or is the blade to stiff?
 
Hi Erint,

Yes, the Spyderco karambit can definitely be opened by partially opening the blade with your thumb and then giving the knife a good snappy wrist flick. However, this still isn't as easy or quick as with other Spydercos. That isn't because the blade is stiff, at least not with my knife. It's because the blade is only 1.9 inches long. Therefore, it doesn't have much weight to ease its opening when you flick the knife with your wrist. As such, you need to flick your wrist that much harder to compensate for the lightness of the blade.

One more observation in this regard: with my other Spydies (and my other non-Spydie tactical knives), I can fully open a partially opened blade with a fairly mild wrist flick 100 percent of the time. With a partially opened Spyderco karambit and a hard wrist flick, the knife opens 75 percent of the time.

It all depends on how much the blade is partially opened beforehand. It needs to be opened a bit more than halfway for a wrist flick to be effective. If the blade is open, oh, 40 percent of the way, forget it. This isn't true of other knives. Usually if you open a tactical or self-defense blade a third of the way and then flick your wrist, the blade locks into the fully open position with a nice crisp snap.

But here's something puzzling. I also own a Spyderco Dodo. The Dodo's blade is even smaller than the karambit's. However, partially opening the Dodo's blade even a third of the way and then flicking your wrist will fully open the blade 100 percent of the time. I ascribe this to the Dodo's handle (which looks to be similar to the Spyderco Yojimbo's handle). The Dodo's handle is very ergonomic and comfortable to hold and manipulate. Not so the Spyderco karmabit's handle, at least in my opinion. The Spyderco karambit is a prettier knife--it has gorgeous lines--but it isn't particularly comfortable to hold and use.

Hotwriter
 
The Dodo makes a far better Karambit ( leaving out spinning , which the Spydie doesn't do very well ) . It is also good for chores , light , good ergomomically , and sheeple friendly . (especially in blue ) . The Spydie is heavy , slippery , hard to close , and doesnt have the wave feature . It deffinatly needs a trainer , and instructional videos/ dvd . The blade shape and cutting ergos are nicer on the Emerson Karambit .
 
Dear Cdf:

I was gratified to read your comments about the Spyderco karmabit. When a beautiful-looking knife turns out to be a disappointment in practice, you have to wonder whether the problem is with you or with the knife. But your assessment of the Spydie karambit seems pretty close to mine. Misery loves company, I guess.

While I love my Spydie Dodo and have zero complaints about it, it's not a substitute for a karambit. The point of a karmabit, as I understand it, is the finger hole in the handle. This is supposed to make the knife difficult for an assailant to wrench out of one's grasp and it theoretically enables one to use an extended grip, which basically gives a small knife the reach of a much longer one. Perhaps the ability to spin the knife in the hands of a skilled user is also an advantage, but right now I can't figure out what it is.

It kills me to admit that the Spydie karambit is hard to hold and wield. I want to love this knife, not just because I invested in one; I like the idea of it. But the bottom line is that I find the handle uncomfortable to hold, and the tighter you grip it, the more uncomfortable it is. And either the finger hole in the handle is too large or the knife isn't well-balanced. One should be able to wield it with the grips for which the karambit was designed without hassle. For me, though, it is a hassle. Perhaps this is a failing on my part. But I own eight other Spydercos and don't have this problem with any of them.

The difficulty with closing the knife is another matter. This is an out-and-out flaw. The thumb groove in the handle simply isn't deep enough to expose enough of the linerlock to close the knife effortlessly. I have small hands, which should make it easier for me to get a purchase on the linerlock to close the blade. Not so. Most often, I must use two hands to close the knife. I actually have a blister on my thumb from trying to close the knife with one hand. For someone with large hands, it would be even more difficult to close this knife with one hand.

I'm probably going to put my Spydie karambit on the market soon. It's pretty to look at, but I bought it to use, not merely admire.

Hotwriter
 
Poor ergonomics, at least for me. I have neither the time nor patience (nor the SD need) it would take to master this knife. Opening and closing this knife is psychologically painful! :barf: Sorry Sal, I just call 'em like I see 'em. I will however probably keep mine just to gawk at and play with occasionally. Maybe I will eventually "get it".
 
Dear Spyderknut:

I don't believe you should need to "get" (in the sense of "understand") the Spyderco karambit or any other knife. A knife isn't a complicated implement (well, perhaps excepting balisongs). Think of every other knife you've owned or used. How long did it take you to "get" them? A fraction of a second?

I wouldn't get on Sal Glesser's case, though. The Spydie karambit is, in my opinion, a noble failure. It was designed by Warren Thomas, a superb designer. And it was laser-cut in Seki City, Japan, where superb industrial craftsmanship is often done. The knife, I don't think anyone will argue, is mighty nice to look at.

Many far more expensive custom knives that work just fine are made of beautiful Damascus steel that would soon be damaged with use. I wonder how many Damascus steel knife owners out there actually use their knives as opposed to simply collect them. Precious few, I suspect. Perhaps this is how to think of the Spyderco karambit: nice to collect but not to use.

However, if Sal were reading this, I would expect this comment to stick in his craw. Some Spydies may be prettier than others, but all are meant to be used. A knife that is too pretty to be used is one thing. A knife that is pretty but impractical to use is a different matter altogether.

But, taking the long view, this will happen from time to time if your knife company prides itself on innovative designs, as Spyderco does. Just recently Spyderco came out with the Dodo (which, on top of everything else, is one of the great names for a knife: the blade looks just like a dodo's beak) and the Yojimbo with its innovative modified Wharncliff blade. And there are not-so-recent Spydies like the Ronin (on which the Yojimbo is based), Matriarch, and Civilian that sport innovative blade designs that work great for their intended purposes. No other company offers anything like these superb knife designs. And if you seek a knife with a serrated blade, the Spyderedge design has never been equaled in my book.

So a disappointing thumbs down for the Spydie karambit, but kudos to the company for attempting something new.
 
Sal has nothing to worry about with me. I love their knives. I have over 30 and will continue to buy 'em and use 'em as well as gawk at pieces I leave in their boxes. I doubt I will ever carry the Karambit but will continue to fiddle with it from time to time.
 
hey there hotwriter,

I don't think you understood what I wrote. you mixed up extended/retracted and forward/reverse grip. from the reverse grip, which I gather is standard for a karambit, it IS easy to swing from retracted into exdended grip.
however, you are right, that the chage from reverse to forward grip is a little tricky. you can do it more easily with the circular cutouts on the handle of the emerson karambit or the dimples on the handle of the bladetech/tarani karambit, because you change grips like this:

- it is easier if you begin with forward grip
- next you pull out your pinkie from the hole and grip the handle in the middle with your middle finger and your thumb.
- then you can swing the knife into reverse grip (with the place where middle finger and thumb hold the knife acting as a pivot point)
- regain your hold on the knife and put your index finger through the hole
- you did it!!!
-from reverse to foward grip it is the other way round

now some concluding remarks:

-the karambit is AFAIK not meant to be used in forward grip, therefore the missing dimples/circular cutouts are no design flaw
-the emerson clips are very bad quality (low frame rate) otherwise one could see in slomo how he does it. he does it like I described. moreover i think this framerate is low on purpose in the same way ernie spins the karambit like crazy. it is just to amaze people without deeper insight into martial arts; and he succeeded as I can read in your posts. I do not want to say that ernie is not a good atmartial arts, but he incorporates flashy, superfluous movements (spinning)in his drills to make it look more interesting. this is where the low frame rate comes in: you cannot see how he is doing it in slomo and therefore he must be doing some kind of anchient, magical martial arts thing.
- IMHO => flames away!

Ookami
 
oh I forgot!

the only thing I can say is bad about the spydie karambit is the awkard opening procedure. maybe for real SD use one should wave it or use a cable strap as a kind of wave.

Ookami
 
Hi Ookami,

Well, getting wires crossed is standard operating procedure around here, but I appreciated your knowledgeable post, which cleared up a number of mysteries. First of all, now that you've pointed it out, it makes perfect sense that the way to shift into an extended grip is from a reverse grip. I was trying to figure out how to do it from a forward grip, which, as far as I can tell, can't be accomplished without several inelegant, awkward, and slow steps.

Your explanation of how to switch from a forward to a reverse grip and back again was good and clear. When I get a few moments, I plan to follow your steps (slowly) and see how adroit I can get. But thanks to your steps, I now at least understand the logic of the maneuver, which I didn't before. I'll report back on my progess. I'm sure there are other KnifeForums members who would like to know more about switching between a forward and a reverse grip on a karmabit, whether Spyerderco's or anyone else's.

I also appreciated your perspective on Ernest Emerson's displays of skill in wielding his karambit in his video clips. After studying them for a while and doing some serious chin-stroking, I thought: "Oh God, I'm never going to develop anywhere near this level of skill." Don't get me wrong: I don't think I could develop even passable skill with the Spydie karmabit without a ton of practice. But now that you've offered some perspective on what is really going on, I no longer think that it's a totally lost cause.

May I ask you something? You seem familiar with the Emerson karambit. How does that knife compare to Spyderco's entry into the karambit market? I respect your opinion and would like to know your thoughts. I've long admired the original Emerson karambit, but after my experiences with the Spyderco model, I've been wondering whether I'm really meant for a karambit at all. But I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet; I admire the design logic of the knife too much for that.

Let me be greedy and ask you another question. What originally got me interested in the karambit was the extended grip because it gives you long-knife reach with a short knife. But now that I've fiddled with the Spyderco karambit, I've found it extremely difficult to hold the knife with a really tight, secure grip in the extended position. It has a tendency to wobble.

Also, as I undersand it, the logic of the karambit design (at least the forward and reverse grips) is that a finger in the hole in the handle makes the knife more difficult for an assailant to wrench out of your hand. But in the extended grip, it's much easier for the knife to be twisted out of your grasp, and in all probablility your index finger would be broken in the process. Your thoughts on this would be most welcome.

Hotwriter
 
I experimented some draws from the back pocket with a wire strap wave and I must say that it works quite nicely; no more clumsy moves :D

@hotwriter ...ok, lets sort this out...

first of all, I am not a native speaker (writer), so forgive me if I incorporate some minor flaws in my language now and then, although I think my English is pretty good.

switching from forward to extended would be quite a feat... :confused:

this way to switch from forward to reverse grip and vice versa is one of the standard moves for switching any knife from forward to reverse grip; for the karambit in particular it is about the only feasible way to do it. therefore ernie uses it in his video.

first point answered, way to go... everybody with normal physical ability can do things like this, no need for extra "karambit bones". the only guiding principles here are: 'know how it works' and 'practice makes perfect'.
I have a bit of martial arts/melee weapons experience under my belt and therefore got sort of an idea how things work. that's why I don't like the way things are presented in ernie's video, which doesn't mean I deny his skill. it probably took time to get this skill, still I cannot see a point in eg. making slashes in the extended grip or the aforementioned spinning.

next, about the extended grip:
the karambit is a really-tight-nearly-touching-BG-quarter rather than a close-quarter weapon, which is most effective against an unarmed assailant. you surely can inflict nasty wounds with a karambit, but its short reach in the traditional reverse grip doesn't allow for more. even the much longer traditional karambits sort of have this limitation.

the extended grip is a method to surprise the enemy with a wee bit farther reach than he expects. it is much like swinging a chain using only two thirds of the length and suddenly lengthening the chain to full length when your enemy became accustomed to the 2/3 length.
same thing for the karambit: short reach is suddenly compensated for ->(unpleasant) surprise for BG.

as for anything there is a downside. you cannot make powerful cuts in this grip because of the "wobble". this why you attack areas of the BG where the target tissue is near the surface of the body ie eyes, eyebrows, ears, neck and the like.

for this you don't need much strength if your knife is sharp. you just snap out to the extended grip and try to place the tip of the karambit near your target in the process. then jerk your hand back dragging the point over the target. this is where the hooked blade desing comes in; because of the hawkbill shape the blade digs in. so there is no need to compensate for the wobble, because it is irrelevant, as long as you can pull with force.

and the possibility of BG wrestling the karambit from your hand in extended grip is small, because you don't have your karambit in the extended grip for an extended period of time. you spin it back to retracted grip after you made your move ASAP, so he cannot safely get hold of it. ever tried to catch the knife of a blender? you get the idea ;)

lastly, about the design differences:
I don't own an emerson, but have long pondered about getting one and due to that looked at it very closely to recognize some of the ideas behind it.

in general the emerson is more utilitarian in its design: it can be used for anything a normal hawkbill can be used for, because it can be held in forward and reverse grip. mr thomas/spyderco, on the other hand, decided to make a less versatile(jack of all trades is master in none), reverse grip dedicated karambit which is geared towards SD use.

the more utilitarian approach of emerson neccessiates some of the design features found in the emerson karambit:
serrations on the spine (better in forward/saber grip)
dimples/circular cutouts in handle (better for changing grip)
less curvature of blade (better for a variety of chores)
and the... well... chisel grind (keeps production costs down, tends to prevent straight cuts ...oh well that's beside the point, but you wanted to know my thoughts ... at least it's easy to sharpen)

on the other hand, spydie features include the following:
arcing protrusion of the ring (better for stopping karambit in midswing, gives indexing in extended grip; can be used as impact tool)
extreme curvature (can inflict deeper wounds)

if I had to say which one I like better it is the spydie everytime. most the complaints (clip placement, slippery handle, awkward in saber grip, etc...) have to do with the misconception of the karambit and the way to use one in combat. I very much like the dedicated spydie karambit. because of this dedication it has some tradeoffs (as opposed to a more versatile mainstreamish karambit), which I elaborated in this post. the only real flaw is the awkward opening which can be cured by "waving" it with a cable strap.

everything IHMO so flame at will ;)

Ookami
 
Dear Ookami,

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to post a detailed reply to my last missive. Even though I do my reading when it comes to tactical and self-defense knives, I have yet to come across the valuable info you just shared, which answered a lot of nagging questions. Even though you say your insights are "in your humble opinion," the logic of what you write is instantly evident.

At last I have some knowledgeable feedback on the difference between the Spyderco and the Emerson karmabits. I was very glad to learn what you had to say and haven't been able to find that information elsewhere.

At last I understand the purpose of the karambit extended grip. Once I read what you wrote, it was instantly obvious that you were right, but until I received your input, I couldn't figure it out on my own or learn it elsewhere.Thank you.

I had a sneaky suspicion that my gripes about the Spydie karambit had more to do with my ignorance about karambits (not that I haven't tried to read everything I could find on them) and less to do with any shortcomings on the part of Spyderco. Spyderco is just too good a company, and their knives are just too consistently excellent, to fault them prematurely, as I may have been guilty of doing. (Well, the Spydie karambit is still too difficult to close.)

What's really scary about you, though, isn't your knife knowledge and (probably) your knife skills; it's your English! You're more than just fluent. You're as thoroughly articulate as a fully literate native speaker, and that's a heck of a lot more than most native-born Americans can say (or write). I'm a journalist and author of five books. Take my word for it: Your English takes a back seat to no man's (or woman's). If you hadn't mentioned that English wasn't your first language, it would have been impossible to tell. Awesome.

You mentioned at the start of your last email that you experimented with a "wire-strap wave" in your back pocket. I assume by "wave" you mean an Emerson karambit with the wave feature. But what is a "wire strap" and how does it work? Is this something you invented, or am I the only one who has yet to hear of this?

Hotwriter

Hotwriter
 
that's what I mean by saying I'm not a native. I looked it up in babelfish, obviously it's wrong. it's the little plastic strips which can be used to bind cables together. they are constructed in a way so that they will only close, not open. I think by now you should know :confused:
how are these things called anyway?

well it was not my invention and it seems to be common place with some of the chums 'round here. just fasten it on the round hole with the "knot" standing up => knot will catch on pocket and open the knife.

Ookami
 
Dear Ookami,

I gather from what you write that you are talking about something akin to the saw-tooth plastic strips that come with some plastic disposable garbage bags. If I have this right, you loop the plastic strip through the finger hole in a karambit handle, and if it's an Emerson karambit with the "wave" feature, it gives you an easier way to withdraw the knife from a back pocket and have the blade be fully open when you do. This must be it, because it's too ingenious not to be correct.

Hotwriter
 
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