spyderco military w/440v steel

I have to admit I'm feeling a little sorry for ekaagan at this point. Yeah, that first post was a lot of attitude without much of an argument behind it, but the reaction has made it seem as if it's simply unacceptable to criticize the "holy" Military. I own one now, and am anxiously awaiting its return from Spyderco where it was returned for a number of minor problems, and I have to tell you all: it's a damn fine knife, but it's not the "be-all and end-all," and certainly not up to the level of hype it receives (I don't think any knife could be). Just an opinion ... which is what these forums are about.

Ekaagan, you can pick up a new-style Military in 440V from Ultimate Outdoors (www.ultout.com) for about $102 + shipping. Quite a deal, suggest you give it a try.

As far as your steel opinions, I must flatly disagree. ATS-34 is pathetically brittle when heat-treated as hard as Benchmade makes it, a quality 440V has not shared since folks figured out that its best performance is in an Rc range of 55-57, not 60-61. Furthermore, ATS-34 is not so widespread in production knives because it's "a great steel from blade to blank" but because it was the first new "high carbon stainless" to get hyped. ATS-34 gained widespread attention in the past 5 years because the alternative was the 440C most companies used. It's comparatively a bear to grind and a gritty, fragile steel when it's made too hard (as I feel it often is), but it was new and VERY hard and the knife rags went nuts over it. THAT was a fad. Particle steels are a revolution in technology. If you're untrustworthy, listen to the experiences of the folks here who use it. And I'm having trouble reconciling your claim of being a "traditionalist" with the fact that you carry an AFCK in a steel that's only became a fad within the last 5 years. I kinda figure a "traditionalist" would have a Buck 110.

To sum up, I'm a little frightened to the massive response ekaagan received when he "dared" criticize the Military. I completely disagree with the steel opinions he or she expressed, but the Military should not be above criticism. It's an A+ blade shape in a fantastic steel for a production knife, but I don't think with that giant handle and strange liner setup it's the "ultimate" big one-hand knife. The best out there right now? Maybe. But above criticism? Certainly not.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
It's not a question of which steel is better--I don't remember where I said ATS-34 was better than CPM-440V. My issue is that steels are a flavor of the month kind of thing with knife manufacturers. With ATS-34 such a popular AND proven steel without the higher cost of these next-generation materials, why stray? -- EK
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Well, EK, before ATS-34 became the flavor of the month, it was 440C. If we follow your logic, we wouldn't have ATS-34.

Could it be that the 440V (and other "high-tech" steel) is becoming the next flavor of the month?

Where's thaddeus when we need his anti-ATS34 tirades
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?

Anyway, here's another link that might interest you www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001929.html

Corduroy -- no knife is above criticism. It is just that when one criticizes, one ought to back it up with proof.

[This message has been edited by Titan (edited 22 May 1999).]
 
I am a "he", thank you. Please reread my first first reply (when was that, I'm loosing track of time) you will see that I didn't criticise CPM-440V nor did I say that ATS-34 was better. I was merely saying that IN MY OPINION there's not much to be gained in that steel over ATS-34 for the price. I have to admit however that for $102 I'm making a mountain (Everest?) out of a mole hill. I should have checked more places first. I do feel the ATS-34, overall, is a great steel which strikes a good balance between hardness, corrosion resistance, and maintenance. So I don't hack metal bars, but I use it for everything and, I am completely satisfied. OK, so it's only 5 years old, but I think that qualifies as enough time for facts and R&D to prove it has worth. Didn't the Military originally come in ATS-34? I'm sure you all would consider that one of its improvements. Anyway, if CPM-440V was the greatest steel for a knife why in heck aren't others using it more, and how come it's not on every/most Spyderco knives.

Botoom line is this: I didn't come here to fight about steel, I'm willing to listen, AND LEARN, but I didn't start this argument? solely over steel. I handled the Military extensively, but didn't buy. A friend also had one and sold it, but maybe it was an earlier model. I wasn't aware of the 3-revision cycle. Thanks all for your input, I'll do more research on CPM vs. whatever.

Now let's move on.

EK
 
EK, I would like to have a crack at answering this two-parted question of yours: "Anyway, if CPM-440V was the greatest steel for a knife why in heck aren't others using it more, and how come it's not on every/most Spyderco knives."

Sal Glesser, in the Spyderco Forum, has pointed out that it costs a lot in terms of money and R&D time to switch from one steel to another. Spyderco has made the investment and has found it to be a steel worthy of their best efforts.

Now, this is my theory: A company has spent a lot of money on developing the methods to produce knives in a new wonder steel (ATS-34 or whatever). They have advertised (hyped?) the steel extensively and the market has gradually accepted it. A better steel comes along, and our hypothetical company still has several tons of the older steel built into their knives and stored in their warehouses. The company has two options: they can either abandon their investment in the older steel in order to stay ahead of the competition in catching the new wave, or they can continue to sell what they have, and let a company like Spyderco figure out the best way to process the newer steel, popularise it, etc. Spyderco does the work, and the entire industry benefits, presumably.

To answer your question, not everyone uses CPM-440V because the knife buying public has only recently caught onto the advantages of ATS-34. They have invested their resources in pushing ATS-34, and they will continue to do so until it becomes profitable to pursue other options. Spyderco is already pursuing other options, i.e., CPM-440V, VG-10, etc.

Incidentally, some people are already bugging Sal Glesser to abandon 440V in favor of even better steels (420V or whatever). Sal has told them that they are looking at new steels all the time, but meanwhile they have only recently sunk a whole lot of resources into learning how to make knives out of 440V, and they aren't able to switch right away.

To answer the second part of your question ("and how come it's not on every/most Spyderco knives"), you may be interested to know that in fact Spyderco IS planning on switching over to CPM-440V for all of their knives produced in the U.S. They obviously don't think it's just a fad. The reason not all Spyderco knives are made of this steel is because, (A) some steels are better for different applications (there is no "best" steel out there; some are simply better than others for a given purpose); (B) many of Spyderco's knives are built by factories overseas, where they prefer to work in steels they are familiar with, for whatever reason. There is a factory in Japan that does a good job with VG-10. Presumably, they don't have as much experience, if any, with CPM-440V, so no one is forcing them to use the latter.

It's all rather complicated, and it's all fairly simple. It's economics, it's mass psychology, it's science, it's witchcraft.

Spyderco has rolled the dice for CPM-440V. Time will tell if they did the right thing. In the meantime, I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my BladeForums.com Blue Native so I can test this steel for myself.

By the way, I, like you, don't own a Military. When I handled both the Military and the AFCK, I liked the AFCK better. (Mine is M2 though, not ATS-34
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)

Regards,
David Rock

[This message has been edited by David Rock (edited 23 May 1999).]
 
Very well said, David. We should have had you answer first and perhaps Ek would not have felt so "attacked". Thank you, Professor.
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Ek, if ATS-34 works for you then that's cool you have found what you are looking for. I have friends that use knives in 420-J2 with no complaints. I am interested in 440V for the cutting ability of the large hard carbides and the high wear resistance so I am willing to pay a few more bucks. I am also curious enough to have custom blades made in 10V, 3V and Talonite.

-Cliff
 
OK, the tone of the responses seems to have settled some so I can "safely" respond. I really do appreciate the wise words and advice from the the more devoted forumites, so I will ask another.

It seems that there is a lot of categorization when it comes to steels; this one's better than that one, this one's tougher or harder or stronger....whatever. Is there a listing of all production and exotic steels by rank? I'd like to see, officially or unofficially, what you (all) think of the steels available. Am I asking too much?

Personally, I'd still rank ATS-34 very high on my list because of it's strengths (given the correct amount of heat treat?). But, I am beginning to discover the emormous benefits of CPM-440V. Then someone has to say there's something better....sheeesh!

EK
 
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