Spyderco moving to MAP pricing!

[Insipid Moniker]

Let's take a look at a real life example:
One dealer shows the MSRP of the s110v PM2 as 249.95, with a selling price of $149.62...once under MAP rules, the lowest that knife could be advertised would be $149.97.
A whole 35¢ more?? <sarcasm>WTF - I'm never buying another Spyderco again</sarcasm>
Okay, so maybe that was a poor example...let's try a few more from the same place
Manix2 LW s110v: MSRP 179.95, price 101.60, MAP 107.97, so an increase of $6.37
Gayle Bradley (M4): MSRP 279.95, price 155..75, MAP 167.97, so an increase of $12.22
Stretch 2 in ZDP189: MSRP 349.95, price 194.70, MAP 209.97 so an increase of $15.27
Rubicon: MSRP 499.95, price 278.20, MAP 299.97, an increase of $21.77

I'm not really seeing much to cry about there...but it will obviously depend on each dealer's pricing scheme.

Not too many months ago I bought a Manix 2 XL as a gift. I shopped around quite a bit and found it for $95 shipped. Now, to be fair, that was a really good price, but it wasn't on some kind of sale and no discount code or anything. With the new policy it would have been about $117. That's a pretty significant increase. Now, I think that knife is easily worth $117, so I'm certainly not going to start a boycott or cry too many bitter tears about this, but it definitely means I'll buy fewer Spyderco products than I otherwise would.

 

[MaxFisher]

Not too many months ago I bought a Manix 2 XL as a gift. I shopped around quite a bit and found it for $95 shipped. Now, to be fair, that was a really good price, but it wasn't on some kind of sale and no discount code or anything. With the new policy it would have been about $117. That's a pretty significant increase. Now, I think that knife is easily worth $117, so I'm certainly not going to start a boycott or cry too many bitter tears about this, but it definitely means I'll buy fewer Spyderco products than I otherwise would.

Under Spyderco's current pricing, the $95 price you found on the Manix 2 XL was below cost. The cheapest price I've seen on that knife this year was 45% off of MSRP at $107.25. That puts us it much closer to MAP than the price you were able to score.

 

[danthaman1980]

I liked the hole at first sight, so you're already wrong.
You become more wrong in assuming that people would buy a knife they find ugly due to a slightly lower price...there are literally tons and tons of knives with studs and disks, not to mention nail-nicks.

OK, some people like the look of the hole at first. I did not - I had to read lots of reviews before I understood why I even needed to pick one up - and once I owned one, I understood.

From that perspective, MAP makes sense to the manufacturer, since (hopefully) more brick-and-mortars will start stocking their product. But most brick and mortars are already higher than MAP on BM and ZT, so they're not even really trying to compete with online sales.

My point was this is not the same as when ZT and Benchmade instituted MAP. This is riskier for Spyderco because Spyderco knives do not appeal to the mass market in the same way as the other guys. They appeal more to enthusiasts and collectors. They risk angering the guys like me who own four delicas and four dragonflies and two natives - but only one mini grip. The 'sprint run' is designed for the enthusiast and collector, and Spyderco does them more frequently than everyone else.
I'm not upset at the price difference, I can afford the extra 4-5% per knife. I'm upset because I think MAP is an unfair business practice that hurts the consumer. I'm upset because I'm worried that this signals an attempt by Spyderco to go more mainstream like BM and ZT - and in my opinion - if it works - we will see fewer sprints, fewer dealer exclusives, and eventually less engagement from Sal and Eric. I hope I am wrong.

 

[mastiffhound]

Sorry for the long post in advance, I've been working through my thoughts for over an hour trying to figure out what was rational thought and what wasn't.

MAP huh? On one hand I can see how doing what everyone else is doing might work for a company. On the other hand though, well, an awful lot of people have stopped buying Benchmade and ZT. They've stated pretty adamantly that they aren't coming back either.

Here is my current list of Spydies (I bought all 11 Spydies this year) including the ones I gifted---Delica 4(Gifted), Sage 3, Manix 2 G-10, Manix 2 Black DLC, Manix 2 Lightweight CTS-BD1, Tenacious Black Oxide Coated(Gifted), Stretch VG-10(Gifted), Caly 3.5 VG-10, Para Military 2 Digicam, Endura 4 Blue FRN, Para Military 2 Digicam DLC, and the Sharpmaker. Honestly I was glad I could shop around for the best price buying from Knifeworks, National Knives, Blade HQ, Knifecenter, and 1(Delica) from the river store. I spent a decent chunk of change this year on Spydies and they're still my favorite. MAP will not take my Spydie love away but it will keep me from buying like I did this year.

I've been thinking for the last hour or so and I'm not sure the MAP model is so great. Many will just buy from a place that thumbs their nose at the " MAP rules". Without the extra goodies, free stuff, and a bloated advertising budget how can a place like NK compete with some of the larger box stores? They can't. This makes it so a small start up will never get the sales that they need to grow and compete, so they won't carry Spyderco (or BM & ZT) because having "glacial" inventory isn't cost effective.

So who is going to benefit from this? Not Spyderco. Not small B&Ms. Not customers. Big Box and large "outfitter" type places benefit. Lastly, other manufacturers benefit. Cold Steel makes decent knives, are using very good steel, and have priced their comparable knives lower than the competition. They also don't have MAP, but that could change. Cold Steel has been a surprise for me. I didn't expect the quality level that I got for the price I paid. My one gripe about CS needing better steel has been fixed. Made in Taiwan is OK, my favorite Spydie for quality, fit, and finish is the Sage 3 and it's made there.

I'm sorry, I can't see how this is a good thing? Just because some Big Box doesn't like how people ignore their products because the pricing is so much higher and buy elsewhere doesn't mean the system requires a fix. It means it's working just fine. I paid $76 for the same Spydie that's $110 at Cabela's. Even Blade HQ is at $80 on the same knife, I can see why places like Cabela's would throw a fit. The net has really helped the impulse buyer really blow through money at an unprecedented rate. The flip side is a more knowledgeable consumer, along with the ability to find the best deal possible.

If you aren't achieving the sales you thought you would then maybe the market won't support the prices you are charging. It makes me wonder if some of these big box stores got together and had a temper tantrum? Because it's not fair that others are charging what customers are willing to pay and not the double mark up they want to charge. AFAIK, MAP isn't a good thing, and a majority of customers seem to agree.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Under Spyderco's current pricing, the $95 price you found on the Manix 2 XL was below cost. The cheapest price I've seen on that knife this year was 45% off of MSRP at $107.25. That puts us it much closer to MAP than the price you were able to score.

I actually got the price wrong, $94 shipped from a large online retailer. Still available at that price, just checked. Below cost or not, those are the kinds of deals I can find on Spyderco products with some regularity and MAP represents around a 25% price increase from that. Again, I think it's worth that, but I don't think the argument that all the price increases will just be pocket change holds any water either.

 

[B.F.U]

Under Spyderco's current pricing, the $95 price you found on the Manix 2 XL was below cost. The cheapest price I've seen on that knife this year was 45% off of MSRP at $107.25. That puts us it much closer to MAP than the price you were able to score.

It's been below $100 more often than not when I've looked on one of the largest online retailers

 

[Stays Sharp]

I actually got the price wrong, $94 shipped from a large online retailer. Still available at that price, just checked. Below cost or not, those are the kinds of deals I can find on Spyderco products with some regularity and MAP represents around a 25% price increase from that. Again, I think it's worth that, but I don't think the argument that all the price increases will just be pocket change holds any water either.

Like the guy was pointing out.. Your situation is still above what is the norm and is not typical at all. Outside of Amazon and Ebay, 45% is the lowest you can find and that is from one dealer. All other dealers go below that with even the popular ones like BladeHQ and Knifecenter go from 35%-40%. B&M dealers typically sell Spydercos close to MSRP or even above it. A 25% price increase you speak of is at the very top end and that is assuming your source is unable to continue to provide that 50% savings. You're not wrong, but you should still must consider that 99% of Spyderco dealers sell well below 40% anyway and price increases for the most part is nowhere near as drastic as some claim (it hasnt even happened yet) and nowhere near as steep as we experienced with other brands and in fact, maaaany dealers including online ones will actually keep the same sub 30% keeping the prices the same.

If large online retailers were able to go beyond 45% when actual dealers couldn't...who is to say that we won't continue to find those special deals? *Protip (dont tell anyone), you can negotiate with several Ebay dealers with their BM prices............ Example: Got my 940-1CF for $210. Point being, there will always be leeway from certain websites. Last thing, buying second hand is always a great option for a lot of people.

 

[AmosPaul]

This move by Spyderco doesn't make sense. Consider Cold Steel, who has increased the quality of their knives and is now more competitive with Spyderco. Cold Steel does not have MAP, and I have seen knife retailers hold sales on Cold Steel. Does anyone think a retailer can have a sale on Spydercos after this new policy?

I am buying a CS Ultimate Hunter not a Spyderco Gayle Bradley.

 

[Stays Sharp]

The dealers have pushed manufacturers succesfully to enforce MAP. With Spyderco, 40% seems to be a compromise that at least shows they put thought in their customers. Remember, the additonal money gained here per knife at MAP goes to the dealers and in fact, Spyderco will probably have to absorb a drop in sales due to this. It's a necessary evil to keep the supply chain healthy (dealers' argument). I mean at this point, what else do we expect brands to do here? I'm not happy but it can be ALOT worse. One thing to pay attention to moving forward is MSRP's though.

 

[Stays Sharp]

This move by Spyderco doesn't make sense. Consider Cold Steel, who has increased the quality of their knives and is now more competitive with Spyderco. Cold Steel does not have MAP, and I have seen knife retailers hold sales on Cold Steel. Does anyone think a retailer can have a sale on Spydercos after this new policy?

I am buying a CS Ultimate Hunter not a Spyderco Gayle Bradley.

This move doesn't make sense to a lot of customers. It makes a lot of sense to dealers who have contracts with manufacturers.. With BM, ZT, Chris Reeve and more and now Spyderco, it's only a matter of time.

 

[bld522]

It makes a lot of sense to dealers who have contracts with manufacturers.

Perhaps. But it also tells dealers that if they can't make ends meet by selling at MAP pricing or by adding enough value that their customers are willing to pay more than MAP to do buy from them, they're out of business. I mean, once Spyderco establishes MAP pricing, who's going to pay more than MAP to buy their knives? I sure wouldn't. But then for me this discussion is largely academic. I'm a free-market kind of guy, so I'm finished with Spyderco once they begin enforcing MAP pricing. From now on, I'll buy my Spydercos where I can get around the MAP price (or the dealer adds enough value IME that it's worth paying MAP to buy from them) or I'll buy them off the secondary market. But for dealers who used to rely on providing lowest price to move Spydercos, the gig is up! Time to get creative guys, e.g., free anodizing, gifts with purchase, extra parts, points programs . . . you get the idea!

 

[powernoodle]

So Spyderco will actually make less money.

That's goofy. Spyderco will never implement any business model that reduces their revenue stream. The sole reason Spyderco exists is to generate revenue.

Protecting - and in fact increasing - the number of dealers protects and increases Spyderco's revenue stream. This is the whole point of Map pricing.

It screws the consumer, however, because as I beautifully articulated in another thread, the cost of a gray Delica (just as an example) will go up 22% next year relative to its current cost on Amazon Prime. So Spyderco has kicked us in the shins while telling us what a great idea it is.

Map pricing can be good for the manufacturer, for low volume vendors and for brick-and-mortar sellers. If consumers don't fight back. But it hoses the consumer in the process, because it artificially inflates consumer costs. How any consumer can be happy about this is beyond my comprehension.

I won't buy from manufacturers that engage in price-fixing, which is repugnant to me on many levels. Its sad that Spyderco is going this route, but there are many excellent alternatives currently available to the consumer.

 

[bld522]

How any consumer can be happy about this is beyond my comprehension.

From purely a cost point of view, consumers shouldn't be happy with MAP enforced pricing. But dealers aren't stupid. Some of them have already created value-add programs in anticipation of more and more manufacturers moving to MAP. It's just a matter of finding the ones that offer the kinds of value-add you as a consumer are looking for.

Where there's a will . . .

 

[B.F.U]

Perhaps. But it also tells dealers that if they can't make ends meet by selling at MAP pricing or by adding enough value that their customers are willing to pay more than MAP to do buy from them, they're out of business. I mean, once Spyderco establishes MAP pricing, who's going to pay more than MAP to buy their knives? I sure wouldn't. But then for me this discussion is largely academic. I'm a free-market kind of guy, so I'm finished with Spyderco once they begin enforcing MAP pricing. From now on, I'll buy my Spydercos where I can get around the MAP price (or the dealer adds enough value IME that it's worth paying MAP to buy from them) or I'll buy them off the secondary market. But for dealers who used to rely on providing lowest price to move Spydercos, the gig is up! Time to get creative guys, e.g., free anodizing, gifts with purchase, extra parts, points programs . . . you get the idea!

From purely a cost point of view, consumers shouldn't be happy with MAP enforced pricing. But dealers aren't stupid. Some of them have already created value-add programs in anticipation of more and more manufacturers moving to MAP. It's just a matter of finding the ones that offer the kinds of value-add you as a consumer are looking for.

Where there's a will . . .

The market tends to find a way.

 

[AF]

That's goofy. Spyderco will never implement any business model that reduces their revenue stream. The sole reason Spyderco exists is to generate revenue.

Protecting - and in fact increasing - the number of dealers protects and increases Spyderco's revenue stream. This is the whole point of Map pricing.

In the shorter term it will most assuredly reduce their revenue. But as you suggest, it's probably better for them in the longer term.

 

[nick21]

Well damn. Didn't know about this

 

[Brummie]

Enforcing MAP is not the same as enforcing the actual sale price, as Benchmade and ZT do, but it probably will encourage some dealers to increase their prices.

Will it affect my buying of Spydercos? Well, yes, because I already have far more knives than I need and there are several spyderco models that I wasn't desperate to buy, but ended up picking them up because I found them at very good prices (often 50% or more off). But then I'm an outlier by normal standards in terms of my knife-buying, and even for me, it won't impact my buying of spydercos that I really want.

 

[Eodjuggernaut]

I do not like this on so many levels even if I do understand it. I honestly believe it goes against the principles upon which the capitalist market is founded. I completely understand wanting to make the market fair but I also believe that actions such as MAP pricing will hinder more than help. The US market thrives and grows based on open competition. I do not agree with everyone getting trophies just for participating either.
I cannot say that I will not buy another spyderco but I can say I haven't bought a ZT or a Benchmade product since they implemented their MAP policies.
I have much respect for Spyderco as a company and maybe there is more here that I am not seeing and I am not foolish enough to believe that I know all the ins and outs. Much to contemplate.
Being military I am privy to the Ops Focus program and in my opinion it is the best program of its type out there. I will most likely come into possession of spyderco's still but it still saddens me that they decided to do this.
I do not like buying knives made in other countries especially from US based companies but I completely support their right to do so. I do not like big box stores pushing out smaller stores but again I support their right to do so. It is up to us as consumers to dictate the market. If I owned a store I would hate for any company to dictate to me what I could sale I product for.

 

[Danke42]

This isn't competition. This is a one ton gorilla selling knives as a loss leader betting that the buyer will order other products from them at the same time (everyone does that buying on line to max out on freight rates).

When they run out of knives they'll move to watches or cellphones without a blink.

Vs. the small dealers that have probably been Spyderco dealers for decades and have all that time participated in building the brand.

 

[B.F.U]

No, it's about Spyderco's distribution model.