Spyderco Native: How Much Hype?

Well, I don't think that there has been any hype around S30V for quite some years. That might have been true when the steel was first offered, but that has been much longer back than either you or me are members of the forums. Out of all that has been written about S30V two things seem to have crystallized:
a) When heat-treated improperly, S30V seems to be prone to microchipping. The last frequent reports of excessive microchipping in S30V date back to the first introduction of Natives in Walmart. This might have been due to the great volume in crease of Natives produced. Before, Spyderco knives, Natives included, didn't NOT appear very frequently on the list of problematic S30V knives on the forums. I haven't heard of much negative buzz about the S30V Natives in probably a year. My conclusion would be that the problem of the first Walmart Natives has been solved
b) S30V does not seem to be able to support radical geometries. At terminal angles of 10 deg per side or lower, you might run into trouble because of the high carbide fraction. You have to ask yourself, are you likely to reprofile the Native to such a geometry. Personally, I have had not problems with other Spyderco S30V blades at 12 deg terminal angle (per side) and I know that others have had good experiences with 10 deg (per side) primary bevel plus 15 deg microbevel. If you do not intend to change the factory geometry, b) does not concern you at all.

Assuming a proper heat treat and a terminal angle of 12+ deg per side, I am very fond of S30V. I think it takes an excellent edge, yes, a bit more toothy than some other steels, notably some HC steels, but easily fine enough to shave and even to wittle hair. Yes, it is quite some work to reprofile/rebevel even though a coarse diamond stone works very well and quickly, but sharpening is no problem at all. And it will hold an edge, in my opinion, longer than most other steels and in some cases significantly longer. This discussion excludes toughness, which is not an issue in a 3" folder.
 
Hi Confederate,

It is not Spyderco's "style" to "hype" our products. We try very hard to say what it is, and not overstate. We would rather understate and let the product win you over.

CPM-S30V is certainly one of the top, if not the top Production knive steels made in America today. The Native provides this steel at an affordable price.

sal
 
All that being said, I think the Native 3D is one of my favorite carrying knives. I love the ergonomics of it, fantastic for cutting things and SD.
 
I was interested in trying some of the premium stainless steels at an "entry level" price. I really liked the look of the Native, so I ordered one. I also liked the look of the Native III, so I ordered one of those, too. It was a good opportunity to compare VG-10 to S30V in basically the same blade.

What great knives! (Unfortunately, like many others, my Native III is a very stiff opener.) I carry the Natives when I want a lightweight knife; the Native when a thin carry profile is important, and the Native III when I expect to use the knife a lot and want the more comfortable handle.

As for the S30V chipping issue, here is my (non-typical) experience: my VG-10 blade edge chipped while field-dressing a whitetail. My S30V blade remains in perfect condition.

My advice to you is to buy a Native and a Native III. :-)

Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
Hi, Sal. Didn't mean to imply that Spyderco was hyping its products; rather, that users might be getting a little enthusiastic. As we've seen here, some folks are very impressed with the S30V's edge retention characteristics while others like it but are fairly unimpressed. As someone who uses mostly mid-range steels in blades, I can't say whether S30V holds a remarkable edge or not. Neither do I know the steel's overall RC hardness from this particular knife.

I'll eventually pick one up when I can get to a Wal*Mart, but the Washington, D.C., area is plagued by Targets, a large and obnoxious chain that buys large stocks of items and then sells them as clo$e to retail as they can. They tend to buy crap, too, like Gerbers and they don't have any real name brand knives.

A Native with a blade size of 4-inches would be great, but Spyderco shies away from anything but pocket knife-sized knives. Zytel is tough, almost indestructable, so a 4+-incher wouldn't be that difficult or expensive to produce. Seventy-five bucks at Wal*Mart should be doable. In the meantime, I have knives with ATS-34 and AUS118, and both are impressive. If S30V can be substantially better, I'll be impressed.

The one knife I inspected recently was easy to open, but with my experience from buying Cold Steel Voyager lock backs, if you get a knife that's stiff to open, it'll always be like that, generally speaking. I've never had my 4-inch El Hombre loosen up, never. I suspect the same will be true of those Natives that are tough to open.
 
Confederate said:
A Native with a blade size of 4-inches would be great, but Spyderco shies away from pocket knife sized knives. Zytel is tough, almost indestructable, so a 4+-incher wouldn't be that difficult or expensive to produce.
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Sorry, dude, but it IS expensive to set up FRN molds. I think I've heard $40,000?
So if it isn't going to be a sure seller, like the Native, Delica, Endura, it might not be the best to invest in a FRN mold.
 
Setup doesn't matter where sales are concerned. With Gerber going down the drain using junk steels and most other knife companies staying with mid-range steels, who's going to compete with them?

Benchmade doesn't have nearly the distribution that Spyderco does, but Spyderco needs some varience in its line. If they can spend $40,000 to set up tooling for the Native, they can set up tooling for a larger version of the Native. And how will they pay for it? With sales. I mean, there are cars that go for $40K! You can't even get a decent house for that!

Look, Spyderco doesn't have anything like a beautiful chiseled 4.5-inch spearpoint folder with a premium stainless steel blade. I think larger blades are easier to handle and process, and I think sales would be incredibly brisk. If they got greedy and tried to charge too much for such a knife ($100+), they'd still sell; however, if they decided to make it the company's flagship bargain, it could shake up the entire industry. (Naturally, upscaled versions at higher prices would also gain many new customers, as well as becoming collectors' items.)

The only competition, I think, would be Benchmade; however, I see their knives being marketed to a different crowd.
 
Well, this is probably not the right forum, but
a) I don't think sales will be "brisk". For one, there is in house competition. You can get the Endura ZDP, 4" blade in something that many consider as THE premium steel on the market right now, including nested steel liner construction.... for $78 and that is NOT at Walmart! I very much doubt that a different blade shape will open a large enough new customer base. The Endura is a tried and tested design. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing it in full-flat, but certainly wouldn't want a spearpoint blade.
b) The Endura and the Police are already 4" which also makes the claim that Spyderco is "shying" away from larger folders somewhat questionable. Again I doubt that >4" will be a big seller as many municipalities have a ban on >4"

I not sure what kind of expectations you have for the performance increase from ATS34 to S30V. Again, personally, I think you will see differences in longterm use. You will notice that on average you have a bit longer between sharpenings, especially if you cut a lot of abrasive material like cardboard, and I think it takes a bit better edge as well, but I doubt that you will be blown away by the difference.
 
The Native has a beautiful, almost chiseled look. A good self defense knife should be able to both penetrate and have a blade big and flat enough to do damage with a twist. It's the latter characteristic that most Spydercos lack, including the Endura you mentioned. In fact, the impression I get when I look at most Spydercos is that they're crimping on steel. Tanto blades seem to have the ability to penetrate well, slash and enough body to damage once inside.

The Native blade design will penetrate, bypassing bones and sliding through sinews. It also slashes well, but it needs to be a bit larger. Twisting a knife sounds brutal, but 3-4 inch knives are not usually long enough to result in instant stops when stabbed into human body. Still, a 4-incher will be substantially more effective than the same knife configuration, but with a 3-inch barrel.

Anyway, that's what I'd like to see Spyderco produce: a Native with a 4.5-inch blade.
 
Confederate: I get the impression from your posts that you believe the Native is a SD knife. It isn't. It can be used for SD but I don't believe that was the purpose for the design. It is a good all around knife to perform everyday tasks. It is a well built and well designed knife. If your primary need is for a SD knife there are plenty other designs out there for that purpose. From what I have gathered the Native has been a good seller for Spyderco and there are a lot people who own them and are quite happy with them for their intended purposes and uses. The initial post was about the "hype" that you think is out there about the Native. There is no hype just personal opinions. The post has now become re-design suggestions and ideas for the Native to "your" personal tastes. That would be where "customs" would come in. (this is not a flame)
 
sodak said:
All that being said, I think the Native 3D is one of my favorite carrying knives. I love the ergonomics of it, fantastic for cutting things and SD.
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As a guy who got gifted a Native 3 by some very nice guy named Sodak, I must agree. The ergos on the Native 3 are top notch, and the wire clip is just a huge step above standard clips. The palm swells and dips just fit my hand great, using the choil, of course (like with the S30V model). My S30V Native got reground by Tom Krein and is on it's way for Vivi to play with, and while it has been a good knife save for some microchipping that went away after some sharpenings, I prefer the Native 3. I can cut all day with the Native 3 with no hot spots or discomfort, it is just has great ergos.

Mike
 
pkdmslf said:
Confederate: I get the impression from your posts that you believe the Native is a SD knife. It isn't. It can be used for SD but I don't believe that was the purpose for the design. It is a good all around knife to perform everyday tasks. It is a well built and well designed knife. If your primary need is for a SD knife there are plenty other designs out there for that purpose. From what I have gathered the Native has been a good seller for Spyderco and there are a lot people who own them and are quite happy with them for their intended purposes and uses. The initial post was about the "hype" that you think is out there about the Native. There is no hype just personal opinions.
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I tried, but I can't put it any better or add any more.
I totally agree..
 
The praise for the Native/Native3 models has been well earned IMHO....
Like most Clipits, "looks" don't usually win knifenuts to Spyderco :rolleyes:
Often times, only after holding/using the tool for its intended purpose will one fully appreciate the Clipit...
The "total package" of ergonomics/design/cutting performance/"premium" steel at an affordable price, etc.etc. ... is the reason why "Those Who Know Choose Spyderco".... :thumbup:

native3009.jpg
 
I have a love/hate relationship with my s30v Native. The handle feels cheap but it fits my hand very well. The lock is solid, however the pin at the pivot area moves slightly in and out, making me nervous. I like the right/left hand clip... well, i did when i broke my right clavicle and had to use my left hand for most tasks :mad:. I've had no problem with the steel, but i use most of my knives for day to day city tasks, i don't get out to the woods as much anymore so they don't see alot of harder use, in fact, i mostly use an ALOX SAK now. I would like an all steel Native though, seems more solid, room for engraving, looks nice etc.
 
Confederate: When did this all over sudden become an SD thread? For an SD knife you don't need any performance steel whatsoever. This thread should be moved to Prac. tac. and I am not sure your last post would be well received there. Sounds to me, you are looking for a wide, pointy screwdriver, not a knife. I am out.
 
You're right, but like it or not, knives used for everyday cutting do fall into the category of being used for self defense. Spydercos have been touted by such authorities as Massad Ayoob, a martial arts and shooting instructor, as being great SD knives. Ayoob's also a cop who has designed at least one Spyderco knife. And anyone who's ever seen Cliffhanger also saw the park ranger slip his Spyderco blade into the leg of the bad guy while he was hanging on a ledge. He put it in the right place, too, to ensure massive injury. That said, most folks will never need to use a knife for SD, and I hope I'm one of them.

So would Spyderco sell 4.5-inch bladed Natives? Is Hillary running for President?

P.S. -- I'm sorry the discussion unnerved you. Pehaps we should talk about letter openers....
 
Confederate said:
You're right, but like it or not, knives used for everyday cutting do fall into the category of being used for self defense. Spyderco has been touted by such authorities as Massad Ayoob, a martial arts and shooting instructor, as being great SD knives. ...
....So would Spyderco sell 4.5-inch bladed Natives?
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Yes, I know who Ayoob is. Have since the 70's.

That doesn't mean that every model Spyderco sells has to be used for SD.

The question is: Would they sell enough to make the effort to be profitable to the company; OK they would sell you one. They would not sell one to me. I have no use for it. I carry tools, not weapons. I frequently carry a Native because it is a great cutting tool.
 
I bought one of the Wal-Mart Spyderco Natives in August- mainly because I heard how nice they were, and I found an out of state Wal-Mart that actually sold them (those Southern Wal-Marts are much better stocked than the CT stores) Anyhow, I have been pretty impressed with the knife, especially for the price. I like my Benchmade Pika more, because of the blade proile, but the Native design has some positive atributesas well- especially the finger groove at the rear of the blade.
 
Confederate said:
Pehaps we should talk about letter openers....
Click to expand...

I've opened mail with a Native before, so i suppose we are talking about letter openers. ;)

There was enough blade length to slash through the vital areas of the envelope and it stopped the imediate threat of being slightly annoyed.
 
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