Squashfan Vs CPM-S30V Round 2 (The next chapter in the Spyderco Millie saga)

[Squashfan]

I had planed for this thread to be titled: "Well, She's Sharp". But after close examination, that title was a lie. I worked on that edge until I could read print with it. It isn't mirror polish by far but, like I said, I could read a printed word on it. It was extremely shaving sharp maybe even hair popping. I could NOT see a burr on either side of the edge. So I decided to try the edge out. I took an apple that was already quartered and diced 3 of the 4 quarters. I used a bamboo cutting board and mostly used a slicing motion with part of the belly of the knife on the board. After I cleaned it, I felt the edge for sharpness and it still felt sharp. I put the Millie away feeling pretty good about my edge.


So later that evening I decided to look at the edge under magnification. Guess what? I see a shiny burr!!! I was so excited. Then I notice that the burr is not continuous. There are little chips out of the edge that were not present after sharpening. I know S30V chips out but is this what is supposed to happen? That a burr and chips are both present?


The burr. You can see a chip in the burr as well. There are chips like this all along the edge.

Except for here. The edge in the center of this photo was untouched during use. I apologize, this was the best photo I could get.

That is all for now. I am working the burr off on my strops as you read this and will report back later.

 

[Twindog]

It doesn't look like chipping to me. I can't tell if it's just a burr that didn't get removed or debris left from cutting the apple. I say that because it looks like there is debris left along the bevel shoulder as well as the apex.

It also looks as though your edge is ground rougher than the blade itself, but it looks as if you did a good job on the bevel.

 

[singularity35]

Is that the bevel and the microbevel?

 

[Jason B.]

Again, your still not taking out previous grind marks. Those chips in the first picture are not chips but coarser grind marks. It's not a burr either because burrs go beyond the apex and look more rounded.

Also, in comparison of edge scratch pattern to blade finish I would estimate you scratch pattern on the edge to be between 300-500 grit.

What stones are you using and what is the progression?

 

[Squashfan]

Quick note. I am using a jeweler's loop that is labeled 40x. These pictures are shot from my camera through the 40x lens in my loop. That is why they are so awful.

It doesn't look like chipping to me. I can't tell if it's just a burr that didn't get removed or debris left from cutting the apple. I say that because it looks like there is debris left along the bevel shoulder as well as the apex.

It also looks as though your edge is ground rougher than the blade itself, but it looks as if you did a good job on the bevel.

The knife was cleaned prior to this picture but there might be dust on it. If it was not a burr, it was some kind of crazy edge damage. Also, I think what you are seeing is some kind of burr on the shoulder. I don't know exactly what it is but I can feel it when pass the bevel over my finger edge trailing. I feel something before the bevel reaches my finger. Does that make sense?

Singularity35, this is a shot of a primary bevel and the FFG of the knife. No micro bevel involved that I know of.

Again, your still not taking out previous grind marks. Those chips in the first picture are not chips but coarser grind marks. It's not a burr either because burrs go beyond the apex and look more rounded.

Also, in comparison of edge scratch pattern to blade finish I would estimate you scratch pattern on the edge to be between 300-500 grit.

What stones are you using and what is the progression?

These are all diamond from Lansky: coarse, medium and fine. Followed by the 1000 and 2000 grit ceramics also from Lansky Finished with green compound over the course and fine side of a Lansky double sided stone.

What to say, what to say? I will agree that the grind marks are wrong. I have long suspected that the jump from the 600 grit diamond to the 1000 grit ceramic was to fine to quick. And that it is causing some of my problems.

Finally, I believe in being honest with people, sometimes to the point of brutal honesty. Would you guys mind if I got brutally honest about what I think? I don't want to start any fights but I have a couple of opinions I am holding back for fear of making waves. Those opinions and a theory or two.

 

[HuntBomb]

You may want to choose your words carefully because there are many more S30v and Spyderco fans than not.
I see no chips and chances are that an apple/cutting board did little to that steel.

 

[Jason B.]

I'm always brutally honest, let's hear it.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Just for a point of comparison. Here is an image of my bm940 s30v edc for at least 2 weeks without touch up. No longer shave but will slice phonebook paper smoothly (except for a couple hiccups).

Image: Cannon elph310hs 8x optical zoom through a 15x Peak loupe. Captured 20130602

Blade: High sabre zero grind, convex ~ 30* inclusive angle edge. Finished on dmt EE, stropped on leather loaded with white-compound. Sorry, some dusts and no mirror to show.

Background: millimeter ruler

 

[Squashfan]

Ok, I don't have clue what is going on but I did notice something. When I looked at the edge after cutting the apple there were definitely chips that weren't there before. I don't know what to call them but that is what they looked like. I really tried to polish the edge when I resharpened the knife and I don't think I left coarse grind marks like before. Yes, the edge wasn't polished like it is in Bluntcut's pic but it was, for lack of a better term, straight. Before you were seeing a coarse and medium finish. I think I did better and this should be closer to the 600 grit finish. The edge didn't look like a saw tooth like it did after use. These chips were and are larger than the grind marks in the edge. I mean like twice the width. I can see that the grind marks do lead to some of the chips but the grind marks are a lot smaller than the chips. What could I be doing to cause this??? I am out of time on my lunch but I was trying to work through what I am seeing Vs what you guys are seeing.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'm assuming, with your Lansky setup, that you're using the C/M/F diamond hones, then following with the 600/1000/2000 ceramics? If so, in using my Lansky in the same manner, there's a very wide grit gap in going from the Fine diamond to the 600 ceramic. Especially with S30V and it's very high abrasion-resistance, it's very, very challenging to polish away the grind marks from the diamond hones with the much-finer ceramics.

I used to use the 'Deluxe' Lansky kit with it's five standard hones ('Xtra-coarse' 70, 'Coarse' 120, 'Medium' 280; most likely corundum/alox), and the 'Fine' 600 and 'Ultra-Fine' 1000 ceramics were an included part of that kit. After using that kit for a long while, until I essentially wore out the Coarse/Medium hones, I had noticed a gentler transition in grit from the 'medium' hone to the 'Fine' (600) ceramic. After wearing out the two hones in that kit, I ditched those standard hones and started using a diamond kit, while continuing to utilize the two ceramics from the older kit along with the diamond hones. That's when I noticed the big drop in aggressiveness, in going from the 'Fine' diamond to the 600 ceramic.

My point in all the above long-winded commentary is this: it does look to me, like you're having trouble in removing the very coarse grind marks from the diamond hones, using only the 600/1000 ceramics (or even worse, if you're just following with the 1000/2000 ceramics). It may be worthwhile to utilize another hone, perhaps something like the 120 coarse or 280 medium from the 'standard' line of Lansky hones (if only choosing one, I'd likely choose the medium). Either one of those is somewhat less aggressive on S30V (especially) than the 'Fine' diamond hone, and might help to bridge the wide gap in grind pattern.

Another option: use ONLY the diamond hones, and put the ceramics aside for now on this steel. If you fully utilize the C/M/F diamond, and take your time with each, refining the edge with the Fine diamond can leave you with a great working edge. Follow that with stropping on some diamond compound (if you wish), and see how the edge performs for you then. I've never liked using green compound on S30V; it's really not hard/aggressive enough for the vanadium carbides in that steel. This is why I suggest diamond instead.


David

 

[Squashfan]

I am going straight from the 600 grit diamond to the 1000 grit ceramic and I believe that you guys are correct.

I don't see a 600 grit ceramic available from Lansky right now and the deluxe non diamond kit does not come with one. The deluxe non-diamond kit runs about $35-40 and it would be worth that for the stones and the clamp alone. I will see about picking it up and trying again.

BTW, how does black compound do for stropping S30V?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I am going straight from the 600 grit diamond to the 1000 grit ceramic and I believe that you guys are correct.

I don't see a 600 grit ceramic available from Lansky right now and the deluxe non diamond kit does not come with one. The deluxe non-diamond kit runs about $35-40 and it would be worth that for the stones and the clamp alone. I will see about picking it up and trying again.

BTW, how does black compound do for stropping S30V?

Because of the high amount of carbides in S30V, I've tended to favor diamond compound for it. Black compound may do OK, but the carbides in the steel are almost as hard as the compound itself. If you have the black (most likely SiC or emery/AlOx), give it a try and see if you're satisfied with it. Stropping is much easier if the appropriate work on the stones is done prior (fully apexing, and reducing burrs as much as possible). Assuming it has been done, a slightly less-aggressive stropping compound doesn't have to do as much of the 'grunt work' of refining the edge.

This is the '600' hone from Lansky (it's a ceramic), and it's the one I've used prior to the 1000 hone. So far as I know, the 'Deluxe' 5-stone kit from Lansky still includes it, but they can be obtained individually also. Knifecenter carries this hone, at about $9 (linked below):

http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/LSS0600/Lansky-Fine-Sharpening-Hone-Blue-Holder


David

 

[Squashfan]

Good morning. Competent post to follow later. The Military has been in my pocket since 9:30 yesterday morning. Been with me to downtown crimeville trying to get medical attention for family. Some guys lost control of his 3.5 to four foot tall dog and the dog bit my mom. Picked up my four POUND dog and slung it around like a rat. So much fun. I need sleep. But it was very, very comforting to feel the Military in my pocket while crawling around downtown at O dark thirty.

 

[HuntBomb]

Did not want to hear that man. I hope your mom is alright?
I would have been ready to test my military on that dog!
Stay sharp.

 

[Jason B.]

Sorry to hear that, hope all is well.

 

[Squashfan]

Did not want to hear that man. I hope your mom is alright?
I would have been ready to test my military on that dog!
Stay sharp.

I was sitting in my brother car and thinking that there is no other knife I would rather have in my pocket than the Military. Where we were was literally just over the hill from Crimeville.

For better or worse, I wasn't there. I had finished a 7 and a half hour shift at work and was just sitting down to eat. That was 8:15. I did not get to eat dinner until around the time I made that post. My Mom wasn't hurt very badly so she opted to wait until our doctor opened this morning. I did basic first aid as best I could and the doctor said she would be fine with antibiotics. The dog had to have surgery and now has drain running through her. I think we will all be fine. We just have to wait for the Sheriff's office to find the owner of the other dog. He gave me a bad phone number and I suspect that the rest of his info is bogus as well. Nothing I could have done about that.


Back on topic: I could have sworn that Lansky listed that fine hone as something other that ceramic. But no matter. I am planning to pick a the full kit anyway.

I really should get some diamond spray but the only brand I know of is Hand American. With the problem being that HA doesn't seem to have a reputable dealer right now.

EDIT: Is ZDP-189 hard to sharpen like S30V? No pun intended.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

@bluntcut,

I have only 15x loupe as well - the edge coming off 'balance strop' looks pretty much like that.

@OP,
Still waiting for the honest theory
As of diamond spray, DMT seems to carry paste, not spray but might work (?).

 

[Squashfan]

@OP,
Still waiting for the honest theory
As of diamond spray, DMT seems to carry paste, not spray but might work (?).

IDK. Still trying to figure out the chips in the edge. That is all.

Good idea! I will look into the DMT paste.

You know, this is the most fun I have had with knife in a long time.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

@bluntcut,
I have only 15x loupe as well - the edge coming off 'balance strop' looks pretty much like that.

:thumbup: yeah with the 'balanced strop' it's easy in getting such edges. However conducive to laziness & impatience with sharpening

OP - freehand sharpening will (almost guarantee) end up with criss-cross scratches due to variable speed/direction/pressure/angle/etc.. Bevel scratches shown in your image look uniform/parallel and similar angle + parallel to factory scratches on the blade. Hence I concur with Knifenut1013's assessment. As many (myself included early on) worry too much about abrading too much metal away - preserving the precious metal, right. But in reality, it takes a lot of works to remove wear resistance steel. You probably work up a sweat to cut a new bevel and reduce the height of the blade by 300um. Factory edges are mostly lame (dull & uneven) anyway, might as well put on your own edge + having better steel than factory belt/machine grinded/burned steel layer.

 

[Squashfan]

I don't understand. Are saying that this knife needs a new edge? I set the hone on the Lansky as close to the existing edge as I could then I started with the coarse diamond stone. It was a little higher angle but not by much. Are you saying that I should have done more?