SRKW CR and ATC VTAC. SxS Pics

Ironballs

Ironballs

Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
1,414
Side by side...

Weight/Lively- CrashRat (aka CR, sometimes called Crash Axe CA) is heavier total, but feels quite lively, more so on horizontal cuts than vertical, due to handle design most likely. VTAC is even more lively in almost all situations, but on a full chop, its harder to stop the VTAC... maybe because the CR has more weight in the handle and not all just at the head? see last pic. (this was based on low grip... with a slightly elevated grip the weight begins to diminish on both

Blade. CR more blade face, and is much more blade like, while VTAC has more reach and edge is much more axe like than blade like.

Grip. Overall, both excellent. The CR has the added utility of the full tang to the pry bar crash tip, but this gives you less usable length to grip on... VTAC is about .5" longer and you can use all of it, where the CR you have to grip up higher. Working on both with a 'choke up' grip is comfortable, however the VTAC is fairly useless to choke up on for finer work with the type of blade it has IMO.. while the CR can be used for smaller jobs mo problem.

Durability... both have great reps, but will reserve commentary until i can find the time to abuse them,... maybe in the next two weeks hitting Cabin in Big Bear :)

Fit and finish are great on both... I can see where the seam on the grip of the VTAC is joined, and looks like it was sanded a bit by the QC guys... or maybe selling vender?

VTAC comes with a nice kydex lined courdura sheath, CR does not come with sheath.

SRKW- life time warranty on everything. Rc 55-57
ATC - life time warranty on head (will likely fix whatever you need, and I read somewhere they offer sharpening for $20 to bring it to a blade... Rc52-54.)

SRKW ~$210
VTAC ~$110




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IB
 
In all fairness, and with honesty, and you have to anwsure. Which do you prefer? D
 
So far, in my left hand, only the VTAC is usable
however, i am Right handed and in the Right... the CR looks to have preference.. I like the larger blade face as well,... but no verdict until some hard use/abuse

If i was to fight with two of these things aka "The Patriot" then two VTAC's would be the ticket LOL
 
Ironballs, I have to agree with you that the VTAC is more of a soldier's piece than the Crash Axe.
 
My Big Bear chop day was postponed until mid this week... but last night my dad calls to help him clear out 3 dead Ficus, about 25# tall, and not more than 8-10" diameter, with lots of 1-2" shoots around. Shoots were live, while the trees and the shoots on them were all dead.

Instruments...
VTAC
Crash Axe
Ratchet (SRKW).

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First, the Ratchet was really sweet. Nicely convexed and polished (a bit beyond factory)... it would actually bite(sink) fairly well... it was really satisfying to use... I only wish i though of batonning it while i was out...
low hand vibration transferred, especially considering the size. Live stuff it snapped right trough, and it would angle cut nicely into the dead stuff, and did cut in perpendicular as well, but not too deep. Verdict, a nice camp/truck/general use blade, with tons of 'general use' potential
(see pics of it in a Chuddy Bear sheath)...

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Next, VTAC. Comfortable grip, but finding a consistent swing was tough.... I would chop high, then low. then on target then anywhere else... not nearly as precise as I thought it was. On perpendicular hits, i would just dent the tree (blade not very sharp, and has a large angle edge)... To make angle chops into the wood, I was surprised to see how well the VTAC chopped. Again, accuracy was very difficult for some reason (maybe the purely round shaft grip?) but it sure sunk in and did its job... up cuts, down cuts, you name it... working well. (note the wood was so hard, I could not drive the spike in... dead and full of minerals, especially down low).... Overall, very comfortable to use and handle.

Next, the SRKW Crash Axe... Maybe less comfortable to hold and play with in the kitchen, but while working with it... i found it to becomes even more comfortable than the VTAC. Less transferred energy into my hand (I guess because of the greater weight, but still i expected the VTAC to be softer with the synthetic shaft eating vibration)... Also, i noticed accuracy was awesome... I could chop and chop and chop hitting the same place at will.. the grip shape I am sure has much to do with this... Perpendicluar hits sank well (while the VTAC did not)... and angle chops sank well also... Again, the spike would not sink in the dead stuff. In the end, i was surprised how lively the axe became while actually using it... it really grew even more on me the more I used it. Plus, the weight makes it a brute... first swing, chop 15%, next chop, advance the cut to 25% of the diameter, third swing... zero cut progressing and the wood just splinters and fractures like I hit it with a 20# sledge... That was cool imo... as hard as the wood was to 'cut' it proved very brittle and did fracture under the force... this changed the difficult dry hard wood chops into a satisfying day of wood busting...

I feel I was able to swing the VTAC faster and the lightness shined... until impact where the Crash Axe would sink deeper. Overall I love them both...

But the strage thing was just how consistently accurate i was using the Crash Axe.... and how in just playing with it it felt the heaviest, but in actual use, the weight felt like it disappeared the quickest... Go figure.

I will have more review soon (after Big Bear) and maybe I will make a choice of favorite then...

(btw, I have been carrying the Ratchet for 2-3 days now, and find it really sweet for an edc. A bit clunky at times (while in the sheath) but in the hand... it does have nice reach, a blade under 3" (especially important in times like now when i am visiting California).. and you really can grip it in so many ways to use it in so many ways...)

Once i got all the wood laid out on the ground... taking them down into smaller 4' sections by chopping straight down into the wood with the floor supporting.... I saw the cleanest cuts and way way less effort with the Crash Axe, which is to be expected I guess... but at the end of around 3 three hours... the Ratchet could use a re-hone (just mild/minor touch up)... the VTAC looks unchanged (still factory dull), and maybe surprisingly, the factory edge of the Crash Axe still shaved hair on the back of my hand... NICE


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Just when I rule out the crash rat for hiking you go and write something like this. You should be banned!:D Still, the weight is up there so for backpacking I may still look elsewhere. Damn they're cool though.:D
 
Ironballs,

That little tool you have (the tan-colored little number in the sheath) has me excited!!!
I have a friend who was an Army Ranger (he led a group of Rangers), and often was involved in hand-to-hand combat. He spoke of gouging out eyes, snapping a particularly fragile bone in the neck, etc. he also spoke of an edged weapon he favored that he described as looking like a small cut-down meat cleaver... Your tool sure fits his description!!!

To be blunt, my search for such a weapon is what eventually led me to buy a 'Cold Steel' Vietnam Tomahawk, ATC VTAC, and then eventually led me to this wonderful forum!!!

PLEASE!!! can you tell me the history of the little weapon, and where can one be purchased...
 
I wonder if the inaccuracy of the Vtac has anything to do with handle flex? how flexy is the handle? also, the crash axe, being heavier, will be less likely to change angle/trajectory with little muscle movements I think. (like shooting a heavy bench/target rifle vs shooting an ultra light mountain gun, the heavier the rifle the less minor muscle movement affects/deflects the shot) once you get the swing moving, it is less likely to deflect with minor movements of muscle. ???

Of course you would expect the crash axe to chop better. The v-tac is a design that puts smacking heads above smacking wood. Much smaller edge, blunter grinds, etc.

Thanks for the comparison.
 
I am not finding ANYTHING when I search 'Google' for 'ratchet'...
Even here, I am not finding usable info as to the history or much else on this tool...
can anyone here point me to someone who would be considered a 'guru' on this 'ratchet' thing?
I REALLY want to know more...
 
swamp rat knife works, ratchet... there are a few versions, including a 'pauls hatchet'...

you can learn more about them on this very forum in the busse and swamp rat subforums... they are rare but pop up every now and again on the fs forums here, and on the big auction sight... there is a tan/tan ratchet identical to mine on the bay right now, with 2 days left... hope its not wrong to mention...

BigfattyTaccuracy I think has more to do with grip shape and design than shaft flex... which is minimal...
 
Personally I second that the VTAC has a few issues with the handle. One is that it flexes too much. Some say it helps with the 'recoil' or 'whip' effect but I feel that applies onto to long items not this short hawk where the rigidity is a crucial requirement. Second is the slightly rounded handles result in the not enough restraining force to secure the hawk's angle during impact. The better the restraint from the grip the more efficient the strike is due to energy loss and eccentricity of load upon impact...

Thirdly (this is debatable) I feel the curved blade of the Crash Rat results in more chance of a small contact area thereby resulting in high pressure aiding the cut. The VTAC's blade is straight therefore as you dig in deeper the straight geometry combined with the shorter cutting edge makes it lose out to the Crash Rat. Some say that ain't fair cause the VTAC has a sharper edge on the top of the blade but at some point it doesn't matter anymore.

I feel the VTAC needs a sturdier handle with some redesign on the handle's cross-sectional design and the cutting edge needs to be increased in length as well as curved.

Just my 2 cents. Please don't flame me if i'm wrong :(
 
glock17jhp check this site out.

http://www.badmojo.tv/

check the odds and ends section at the bottom of the page pic #3 for the original pauls hatchet

the yet to be released pauls hatchet tac is under new lineup.

the one ironballs was using was a more affordable version made by swamprat.

there was alot of the ones made by busse though so they are easy enough to get from another bf member. just let them know what you are looking for in the exchange section.
 
Cotherion,

I think if you look at the main planned usage for the Vietnam Tactical Tomahawk (VTAC)... as a striking weapon against a person... the handle is good, in fact, it is DURABLE to the point of being nearly indestructible...

Testing a VTAC by using it as a hatchet only makes sense to me from the standpoint that at best this is definitely a secondary role (or less) to it's main function... so the results doesn't matter that much to me...

If you learn the history of the VTAC as relates to being an updated version of the original Vietnam Tomahawk, the handle was changed from being hickory for a reason... not the least of which was to make it less likely to be damaged during throwing. When a tomahawk is thrown, sometimes it will impact 'handle first'... and in such instances, the current VTAC is better than the original VT. If the tomahawk is employed in a wet environment, the VTAC's handle will last and last, even after getting wet over and over...

Having a nearly round profile to the VTAC handle (when viewed from the end of the handle looking toward the head) is for ease of throwing... this is why the original VT was this shape, too...

I have both the VT ('Cold Steel's repro) and the ATC VTAC... and I like them BOTH... but if I could only have one... it would be the VTAC without a doubt...
 
Cotherion said:
Thirdly (this is debatable) I feel the curved blade of the Crash Rat results in more chance of a small contact area thereby resulting in high pressure aiding the cut. The VTAC's blade is straight therefore as you dig in deeper the straight geometry combined with the shorter cutting edge makes it lose out to the Crash Rat. Some say that ain't fair cause the VTAC has a sharper edge on the top of the blade but at some point it doesn't matter anymore.
Click to expand...

Remember, too...
The curved blade might be better for chopping (the VTAC is a tomahawk, not an axe or hatchet), but the straight-shaped edge is better for sticking, like when you throw the tomahawk... this feature is left out on axes and hatchets, since they are not really designed to be thrown...
Part of the confusion on this issue is that some want a general-purpose tool that can be a jack-of-all-trades... and some even try to design this way. I would rather have a tomahawk to do the job of a tomahawk, and if I want to do the work of an axe or hatchet, I will get a separate tool for that use...

Tomahawks are the best... at being tomahawks...
 
Yes that would explain why the VTAC sticks well compare to cutting. I guess I got confused seeing the wood chopping photos and just analysed it as a woodcutter's tool. I agree with the round profile and the choice of synthetic handles but perhaps a stiffer synthetic handles would transfer the energy better? I know it is durable and indestructable but it could be stiffer ever so slightly more? Modern day usage required it to sometimes strike at hard stuff and sometimes repeatedly (example during war) and as a modern design it was supposed to fulfill a wider spectrum of functions and wood-choppin is not too far off from reality. Imagine soldiers in forest needing an axe for light chopping (i know it can't beat a woodcutter axe but it isn't suppose to) but sorry dudes, the VTAC's design didn't factor in this that highly... A tomahawk ain't an axe but it ain't too far off from one.

The VTAC is a tomahawk which most tomahawks are 'throwable' however the throwing aspect is a secondary function or a last resort during typical use. It is safe to assume that basic axe-like striking (quick and repeatable compared to a typical axe) or chopping action will be the main function to be expected of the VTAC to which a round handle is not so particularly suited (as demonstrated in the situation described by Ironballs) contributing to slightly erratic strikes both inconsistant and inaccurate.

Perhaps not overly 'un-round' handles but aslightly more oval handles balancing the need to accurately,consistantly and repeatedly shatter a desired spot on a victim/enemy as well as being throwable.
 
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