St. Nick’s Native 4V exclusive and some gripes

[marrenmiller]

They're not being resold because no one's buying them.

I doubt that very much, but sure

 

[Dfunk1210]

I wish the retailers would raise their exclusives prices. Everyone whined about Bento Box Shop charging so much for their exclusives in M390, but I don't see many of those being resold, and it seems like they're not hard to get if you really want one. Companies should charge what the market can bear, rather than leaving money on the table for flippers. Simple economics.

I’ve seen this exact thing done in other collector markets. The companies wanted a bigger cut of the resale market. Turns out when you do this, resellers stop buying and companies are forced to stop making. The demand resellers create is what drives companies like spyderco to poduce more limited editions.

 

[marrenmiller]

I’ve seen this exact thing done in other collector markets. The companies wanted a bigger cut of the resale market. Turns out when you do this, resellers stop buying and companies are forced to stop making. The demand resellers create is what drives companies like spyderco to poduce more limited editions.

I'm suggesting that knife retailers and Spyderco are both leaving money on the table if we are routinely seeing flippers/resellers mark up their products. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that flippers and resellers drive demand of knives rather than take advantage of demand of knives? Either you buy a knife and hold it (therefore not being a reseller), or you find buyers who are willing to pay a higher price for your limited good (therefore indicating that the product wasn't priced correctly from the start).

This is exactly what Grimsmo did once they wised up to what was happening, and it's like the first thing you'll learn in an economics course. It isn't an opinion but just how markets work.

 

[Danke42]

O

I doubt that very much, but sure

OK sure. Go to the BBS site and put a M390 knife in your cart.

Got to DLT or any of the other folks and put a M390 PM2 in your cart.

Finish the order and see which one you get first.

 

[Danke42]

Leaving money on the table?

Maybe for some folks it's not about the money. Just a hunch.

 

[Dfunk1210]

I'm suggesting that knife retailers and Spyderco are both leaving money on the table if we are routinely seeing flippers/resellers mark up their products. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that flippers and resellers drive demand of knives rather than take advantage of demand of knives? Either you buy a knife and hold it (therefore not being a reseller), or you find buyers who are willing to pay a higher price for your limited good (therefore indicating that the product wasn't priced correctly from the start).

This is exactly what Grimsmo did once they wised up to what was happening, and it's like the first thing you'll learn in an economics course. It isn't an opinion but just how markets work.

Let me explain. Lets say Spyderco did what you suggest and raises prices on these sprint runs. Like you said, they wouldn’t be leaving money on the table. But when resellers see that the resale margin is low and not worth their time, they stop buying. So there is plenty of stock for those who want it. And those few people will buy it for sure. That leaves everyone one else that likes the knife, but, at that price and there being plenty of stock, theres no rush to buy it. The result being a sprint run that does not sell through. And when this happens, retailers are not in a rush to order more exclusives and therefore spyderco doesnt make em. And this is exactly what i have seen so many times before. Without resellers, most of these sprint runs wouldnt even exist

 

[Danke42]

Let me explain. Lets say Spyderco did what you suggest and raises prices on these sprint runs. Like you said, they wouldn’t be leaving money on the table. But when resellers see that the resale margin is low and not worth their time, they stop buying. So there is plenty of stock for those who want it. And those few people will buy it for sure. That leaves everyone one else that likes the knife, but, at that price and there being plenty of stock, theres no rush to buy it. The result being a sprint run that does not sell through. And when this happens, retailers are not in a rush to order more exclusives and therefore spyderco doesnt make em. And this is exactly what i have seen so many times before. Without resellers, most of these sprint runs wouldnt even exist

Death Spiral

 

[soc_monki]

They're not being resold because no one's buying them.

I beg to differ. I bought one, and others on the spyderco forum bought one. I never intended to flip it, it was black and blue, an awesome steel, and I think it's a great looking knife. And Pm2s are awesome anyway. If someone else had them in this configuration I would have gotten it from them, unless I had to fight for it. Then I just would have said screw it.

I don't regret paying what I did, because I'm keeping it and using it, and will for a long time. Will I buy another BBS exclusive? Probably not, unless they do something like a Manix in black and blue. And I won't regret that one either.

 

[sharp_edge]

I wish the retailers would raise their exclusives prices. Everyone whined about Bento Box Shop charging so much for their exclusives in M390, but I don't see many of those being resold, and it seems like they're not hard to get if you really want one. Companies should charge what the market can bear, rather than leaving money on the table for flippers. Simple economics.

Simple but not that way. The relatively lower prices of exclusives create a long-lasting high demand for Spyderco as a brand. One can argue for the company it may be a better strategy than otherwise getting a few more bucks per knife that people do not rush to buy.

 

[Danke42]

I beg to differ. I bought one, and others on the spyderco forum bought one. I never intended to flip it, it was black and blue, an awesome steel, and I think it's a great looking knife. And Pm2s are awesome anyway. If someone else had them in this configuration I would have gotten it from them, unless I had to fight for it. Then I just would have said screw it.

I don't regret paying what I did, because I'm keeping it and using it, and will for a long time. Will I buy another BBS exclusive? Probably not, unless they do something like a Manix in black and blue. And I won't regret that one either.

If you compare the lifespan of a BBS knife to the other dealer exclusives or sprints then you'll understand the "not selling" metric.

Nothing to do with the quality of the knife or if you like it.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

I don’t blame flippers, I blame idiots who support flippers. Flippers wouldn’t exist without them.

There are way too many great knives out there to be overpaying for a knife you missed out on. I have never supported a flipper and never will. That is all I can do about it.

Of course you do need to be impervious to the hype machine. There is so much hype in the knife world.

 

[hose56]

Last night I agreed to purchase a knife from a member here. After I posted an "I'll take _" another member posted a note to the seller that if he didn't want to sell to a flipper he would buy one of the knives. ( Basically he offered to buy from a flipper while he complained about them) I had no intention of reselling the knife and am not sure the comment was directed at me as other members were also making purchases in the same thread.
So here is my take of flipping knives -
The person I purchased the knife from flipped it.
GEC flipped it to a dealer and made profit
The dealer flipped it to a buyer and made profit
Some company flipped the metal and handle materials to GEC.
Everything in Walmart, Ebay, or any other retailer is flipped.
Everything starts with raw materials and is "flipped" in every step of production.
Everybody at each step makes some profit or they go out of business. Pretty simple economics.
I wouldn't have half of the fine GEC knives I own if I did not by from people flipping them. It's how I get the rare ones I want
So now we come to price. How much is a knife worth? Answer - whatever you are willing to pay for it. You are not forced to buy anything.
And what is fair profit?
I managed retail stores many years ago. Profit margins vary by product. It can be as low as 5% and up to or above 200%.
Quality,supply, and demand set prices for both materials and labor cost. Cosmetics have huge markups on them
Any good business will conduct themselves in a moral manner. They depend on repeat customers.
If you feel something is too high, do not buy it. Also remember, it is nice to invest in something that will increase in value.
That said, there are certainly some people I will not buy from because I feel they conduct business in an unethical manner. That is usually very obvious.
I shall not name them here.
Have a great Labor Day. Look up the reason for the holiday.
Plan safety into everything you do.

 

[BD_01]

I wish the retailers would raise their exclusives prices. Everyone whined about Bento Box Shop charging so much for their exclusives in M390, but I don't see many of those being resold, and it seems like they're not hard to get if you really want one. Companies should charge what the market can bear, rather than leaving money on the table for flippers. Simple economics.

So you’re saying that escalating retail prices is a good thing?

I understand how exclusives are beneficial for a brand and for a retailer, in generating revenue, hype, brand desirability, etc.

As a consumer, I would like to see Spyderco (etc) increase the minimum unit quantity for exclusives...not so much that exclusivity is lost, but enough that the flippers are foiled and someone with a life that precludes hovering around a computer actually has a chance of getting a knife.

 

[marrenmiller]

So you’re saying that escalating retail prices is a good thing?

I understand how exclusives are beneficial for a brand and for a retailer, in generating revenue, hype, brand desirability, etc.

As a consumer, I would like to see Spyderco (etc) increase the minimum unit quantity for exclusives...not so much that exclusivity is lost, but enough that the flippers are foiled and someone with a life that precludes hovering around a computer actually has a chance of getting a knife.

They could do either higher prices or make more of them, sure. I'm just pointing out that the solution to reducing the viability of reselling limited edition knives in our hobby is to raise the prices on those knives, because it seems like Spyderco isn't interested in making a ton of them.

 

[marrenmiller]

Simple but not that way. The relatively lower prices of exclusives create a long-lasting high demand for Spyderco as a brand. One can argue for the company it may be a better strategy than otherwise getting a few more bucks per knife that people do not rush to buy.

That's totally possible. I'm only addressing the supply/demand side of the gripe by noting that the surefire way to address reselling is by making reselling not viable. I'm fine with them pricing the limited editions as they currently do.

 

[marrenmiller]

Let me explain. Lets say Spyderco did what you suggest and raises prices on these sprint runs. Like you said, they wouldn’t be leaving money on the table. But when resellers see that the resale margin is low and not worth their time, they stop buying. So there is plenty of stock for those who want it. And those few people will buy it for sure. That leaves everyone one else that likes the knife, but, at that price and there being plenty of stock, theres no rush to buy it. The result being a sprint run that does not sell through. And when this happens, retailers are not in a rush to order more exclusives and therefore spyderco doesnt make em. And this is exactly what i have seen so many times before. Without resellers, most of these sprint runs wouldnt even exist

I think both Spyderco and retailers could bump up the price on a number of their recent exclusives and still sell out in a matter of hours, as clearly some of us are willing to pay more for them. Most of the recent PM2 sprint runs could easily net an extra $10-20, but that is just my opinion on the matter.

In any case, there is one way to reduce reselling and that's by raising the price up to meet an item's value. If that's not what the sprint runs are about, that's fine. But to complain about the resellers but not accept that it's down to the items being undervalued is ridiculous.

 

[Dfunk1210]

I think both Spyderco and retailers could bump up the price on a number of their recent exclusives and still sell out in a matter of hours, as clearly some of us are willing to pay more for them. Most of the recent PM2 sprint runs could easily net an extra $10-20, but that is just my opinion on the matter.

In any case, there is one way to reduce reselling and that's by raising the price up to meet an item's value. If that's not what the sprint runs are about, that's fine. But to complain about the resellers but not accept that it's down to the items being undervalued is ridiculous.

I get what you’re saying. The problem is that it is perceived demand vs scarcity that determines that value in the third party market. And at the end of the day, it is the resellers grabbing a big chunk of the stock that creates that scarcity. If Spyderco charges that perceived value right off the bat, there isn’t that demand and scarcity to back up that pricing. What you end up with is a slow selling, or worse, a failed product. This will just kill the market for them and you wont see many afterwards.

 

[marrenmiller]

I get what you’re saying. The problem is that it is perceived demand vs scarcity that determines that value in the third party market. And at the end of the day, it is the resellers grabbing a big chunk of the stock that creates that scarcity. If Spyderco charges that perceived value right off the bat, there isn’t that demand and scarcity to back up that pricing. What you end up with is a slow selling, or worse, a failed product. This will just kill the market for them and you wont see many afterwards.

Resellers wouldn't grab a huge chunk of the supply if they didn't believe they could price them higher than they are at retail. If there wasn't the demand to back up their reselling, they wouldn't do it. I still firmly believe Spyderco sprints are underpriced, and that something like an M390 PM2 could sell out in a short time for more than $155 when the normal one goes for $140.

But in the end, I don't actually mind their pricing strategy if I can still get one by being dilligent and setting timed reminders. I don't really mind the resellers because Spyderco is signaling that they don't either.

 

[BigKurtHaze]

I picked up a 4V/marbled carbon fiber Manix exclusive last fall. Great knife, has become my daily work carry. They were priced a good bit higher, a bit over $200.

It took maybe 6-8 weeks(?) for the run to sell out. Not really following how that made it an “unsuccessful” run for the dealer, and apparently Spyderco is able to still sell knives in the aftermath of that “disaster”.

That said, I do appreciate the screaming good deal I got on my St. Nick’s Para 3 shortly before that. Hoping I’m able to score a Shaman when they get to that.

 

[somber]

I think both Spyderco and retailers could bump up the price on a number of their recent exclusives and still sell out in a matter of hours, as clearly some of us are willing to pay more for them. Most of the recent PM2 sprint runs could easily net an extra $10-20, but that is just my opinion on the matter.

In any case, there is one way to reduce reselling and that's by raising the price up to meet an item's value. If that's not what the sprint runs are about, that's fine. But to complain about the resellers but not accept that it's down to the items being undervalued is ridiculous.

Every year we have people get up in arms at the yearly increase in production cost, but that was before, now we have this guy going the other way advocating that dealers should inflate pricing to reduce sales velocity so he and all the other "true" fans can get a knife more readily available.

I love it.