Many great knives have handles with cracked looking bark ivory. Sometimes it is described as "stabilized" but mostly not. With all those cracks, how durable or stabile is it under carry conditions, where the knife just jingles around in a pocket all day, or in a sheath, without abusive use?
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stability/durability of bark ivory
- Thread starter curt
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curt, bark ivory is not the best material for a hard use knife but it is very tough also much harder than wood. It will srink and expand with the humidity and is a good idea to put mineral oil on it from time to time. The cracks are uaually just in the surface and don't go through the scale. I think it's fine for a light duty carry but not a hard user. Hope this helps.
Don Hanson lll
Don Hanson lll
thanks for the info Don. Some of that material is just checkered like crazy, looks good but wouldn't want it to fall apart in five years or so. By the way, i picked up one of your Sunfish pattern knives from Glenn B. quite recently, and i can't emphasize enough how much i am pleased by it. I had high expectations when i ordered it, but the reality exceeded anything i expected. Great, great work.
Ivory is more durable than you think. Just take a tour through a museum of swords, cutlery, and African or Asian art and you'll find examples of centuries old work all still in very good condition. Ivory was initially used on knife and sword handles not because it was exotic, but because when wet (with blood or moisture) it is non-slip. It is very hard wearing despite being a "live" material. A good ivory knife handle is far harder wearing than a wood, horn, or bone handle.
Bark ivory is taken from the tips and front sides of elephant tusks. It is marked with fine hairline cracks, scratches and lines as a result of normal use by the elephant (rooting for bulbs, grasses, debarking trees, etc). It is highly desireable because of these markings and can be very beautiful. The important thing to remember is that marks, fine cracks, etc in ivory are not flaws, they are part and parcel of what ivory is about. I would go as far as to say that the best ivory is that which has markings and colouring on it. Pure white, plain ivory can look quite dead and is often mistaken for an artificial material.
Any natural handle material (wood, horn, bone, ivory) will shrink or expand according to the climate or any noticeable change in climate. It goes with the proverbial territory. The only way to avoid handle movement is to opt for artificial mateirals, and I would put the stabilisied woods into this group as they have a decided "plastic" look to them.
Bark ivory is taken from the tips and front sides of elephant tusks. It is marked with fine hairline cracks, scratches and lines as a result of normal use by the elephant (rooting for bulbs, grasses, debarking trees, etc). It is highly desireable because of these markings and can be very beautiful. The important thing to remember is that marks, fine cracks, etc in ivory are not flaws, they are part and parcel of what ivory is about. I would go as far as to say that the best ivory is that which has markings and colouring on it. Pure white, plain ivory can look quite dead and is often mistaken for an artificial material.
Any natural handle material (wood, horn, bone, ivory) will shrink or expand according to the climate or any noticeable change in climate. It goes with the proverbial territory. The only way to avoid handle movement is to opt for artificial mateirals, and I would put the stabilisied woods into this group as they have a decided "plastic" look to them.
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A point to ponder, before I get it the mastodon has been buried in a swamp for 10-20,000 years and has stood up very well. It isn't going to fall apart in the next 100 or more.
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Thanks curt, glad to hear you like the Sunfish. Lot of good info here and I agree, ivory is very durable.curt said:
Don
actually...................................
All natural material swells and shrinks, some just a little, some more so. Stablizing helps, but I am not sure it completely eliminates this, except maybe in super porous materials like maple etc. Hard woods and ivory have very little room for a foreign agent to leech in.
AND, every piece of natural material, ivory or wood, is different in makeup than all the other pieces............it is unique.
SO.............you can never tell what it is going to do.
I have had 20 year old ivory crack on me, I have had 2 year old ivory maintain its integrety for the last 18 years. No matter how careful the maker is, the differences between the humidity where he live and where the knife ends up, as well as the stresses inside the material from the outset, determine whether or not the handle is going to stay put forever.
There are a lot of 100 year old knives out there with just the hints of checking, and there are ones just as old with huge cracks in them.
I believe, it is the luck of the draw. The maker can minimize things by not overheating the material, and letting it age properly, but that is all he can do.
All natural material swells and shrinks, some just a little, some more so. Stablizing helps, but I am not sure it completely eliminates this, except maybe in super porous materials like maple etc. Hard woods and ivory have very little room for a foreign agent to leech in.
AND, every piece of natural material, ivory or wood, is different in makeup than all the other pieces............it is unique.
SO.............you can never tell what it is going to do.
I have had 20 year old ivory crack on me, I have had 2 year old ivory maintain its integrety for the last 18 years. No matter how careful the maker is, the differences between the humidity where he live and where the knife ends up, as well as the stresses inside the material from the outset, determine whether or not the handle is going to stay put forever.
There are a lot of 100 year old knives out there with just the hints of checking, and there are ones just as old with huge cracks in them.
I believe, it is the luck of the draw. The maker can minimize things by not overheating the material, and letting it age properly, but that is all he can do.
Tom makes two very valid points . . .
1. Hard woods and ivories cannot really be stabilised. Even under strong vacuum pressure they don't absorb stabilising material. In one test we conducted we stained ivory with strong tea. We vacuumed suctioned it, we boiled it, we put it in a microwave oven, we soaked it for days. The stain never penetrated more than a few thousandths of an inch, if that. Interestingly the ivory never cracked or checkered either!
2. How the knifemaker works the ivory, how it is attached to the knife, and how you care for it later, can be a determining factor as to whether it will crack or not. When working the ivory it is best to keep it as cool as possible. One local knifemaker who uses it exclusively says "treat it like wood". As an owner of an ivory knife one should try (whenever possible) to avoid excessive heat, cold, or dryness, and dishwashers!
1. Hard woods and ivories cannot really be stabilised. Even under strong vacuum pressure they don't absorb stabilising material. In one test we conducted we stained ivory with strong tea. We vacuumed suctioned it, we boiled it, we put it in a microwave oven, we soaked it for days. The stain never penetrated more than a few thousandths of an inch, if that. Interestingly the ivory never cracked or checkered either!
2. How the knifemaker works the ivory, how it is attached to the knife, and how you care for it later, can be a determining factor as to whether it will crack or not. When working the ivory it is best to keep it as cool as possible. One local knifemaker who uses it exclusively says "treat it like wood". As an owner of an ivory knife one should try (whenever possible) to avoid excessive heat, cold, or dryness, and dishwashers!
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Are you a seller of it by any chance? Just curious.
Ivory is lovely, it is amazing and it is expensive. These are all well known qualities.
For whatever reason, you like it, or seem too. I like to guarantee that my $500 to $1,000 investment has a minimal chance of self destructing on me.
I was on the fence about Mastadon/Mammoth ivory until 1994. My business partner purchased a beautiful custom auto. Slim, lovely lines, long, top maker, and this piece HAD the most beautiful dovetailed Mastadon Ivory scales that I had ever seen. The knife cost in the mid four figures.
The scales would not stop moving. The knife was made in New England, and the owner in the pacific northwest. Everything was tried by the maker to fix it, including, reworking the whole piece with epoxy resin. This was over the course of a year.
We had put it in the case at a show like this for two years, explaining the problem.
Finally, we had the maker re handle it in pearl. Not only did it command three times the price (that was the maker getting "famous"), and it looked amazing, but the kicker is, the handles have not moved.
I don't sell handle materials, nor do any of my friends, and these feeling have come about with time and experience. I looooove pearl handles, and own a fair amount of them. I pay a fair price to get exhibition grade handles whenever possible, which is usally around $150.00. I am a collector of knives, and a user of many knives, but don't usually use my "collecting pieces"
Not using these pieces, dropping them is unlikely, and that is the only area that should be of concern. That will literally break your heart. Carpet or linoleum is usually ok, but concrete is a killer. Guess what the floor of most of the knives shows that I have been to is?
So enjoy your ivory with that fine, aged appearance. Remember this, those hairline cracks and imperfections may grow into a full blown superglue fix, and that devalues the knife. A lot.
The stablized woods in South Africa may look plastic-y, but unless you do a mirror polish on some of them, the stuff that Alpha Supply sells look nothing like plastic at all. Most of them, you cannot tell have been stabliized, it just allows you to use woods that had previously been undesireable for knife handles, like redwood burls and such.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Ivory is lovely, it is amazing and it is expensive. These are all well known qualities.
For whatever reason, you like it, or seem too. I like to guarantee that my $500 to $1,000 investment has a minimal chance of self destructing on me.
I was on the fence about Mastadon/Mammoth ivory until 1994. My business partner purchased a beautiful custom auto. Slim, lovely lines, long, top maker, and this piece HAD the most beautiful dovetailed Mastadon Ivory scales that I had ever seen. The knife cost in the mid four figures.
The scales would not stop moving. The knife was made in New England, and the owner in the pacific northwest. Everything was tried by the maker to fix it, including, reworking the whole piece with epoxy resin. This was over the course of a year.
We had put it in the case at a show like this for two years, explaining the problem.
Finally, we had the maker re handle it in pearl. Not only did it command three times the price (that was the maker getting "famous"), and it looked amazing, but the kicker is, the handles have not moved.
I don't sell handle materials, nor do any of my friends, and these feeling have come about with time and experience. I looooove pearl handles, and own a fair amount of them. I pay a fair price to get exhibition grade handles whenever possible, which is usally around $150.00. I am a collector of knives, and a user of many knives, but don't usually use my "collecting pieces"
Not using these pieces, dropping them is unlikely, and that is the only area that should be of concern. That will literally break your heart. Carpet or linoleum is usually ok, but concrete is a killer. Guess what the floor of most of the knives shows that I have been to is?
So enjoy your ivory with that fine, aged appearance. Remember this, those hairline cracks and imperfections may grow into a full blown superglue fix, and that devalues the knife. A lot.
The stablized woods in South Africa may look plastic-y, but unless you do a mirror polish on some of them, the stuff that Alpha Supply sells look nothing like plastic at all. Most of them, you cannot tell have been stabliized, it just allows you to use woods that had previously been undesireable for knife handles, like redwood burls and such.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2002
- Messages
- 13,348
Tom's got it right - there are no guarantees - you trust the maker to work the material as best he can and you care for it the best you can and what will be will be. I love the look of all the ivories and am more than willing to accept a few hair-line cracks (and run the risk of worse) to enjoy the look and feel of the handle material on my knives. I think pearl is pretty terrific too, but an impratical choice for the large bowies that I collect.
Worst case scenario is that you need to have a knfe re-handled. Not something you want to have happen, but not the end of the world either.
Roger
Worst case scenario is that you need to have a knfe re-handled. Not something you want to have happen, but not the end of the world either.
Roger
I was a scrimshander (www.kgsa.co.za/member/hiltonpurvis), so let's say I spent a good few hours being up close and personal with many forms of ivory. It truly is a unique material.
Early on I made a knife with an ivory handle..........walrus.........dont think I let it age at all, and put it in a gun store for sale.
They kept the air going all the time, at low temp.
Because this works as a dehumidifier too, the ivory kept shrinking, and shrinking and shrinking...........I was amazed at how much it shrank over the course of 6 months. Finally I had to grind it off and put on something else.
It didnt stop me from using it, just made me aware of something that everyone should know. Natural materials are NOT stable, and if the buyer thinks that they should be guaranteed, then the maker has to make his position clear.
They kept the air going all the time, at low temp.
Because this works as a dehumidifier too, the ivory kept shrinking, and shrinking and shrinking...........I was amazed at how much it shrank over the course of 6 months. Finally I had to grind it off and put on something else.
It didnt stop me from using it, just made me aware of something that everyone should know. Natural materials are NOT stable, and if the buyer thinks that they should be guaranteed, then the maker has to make his position clear.
Bark ivory is one of the most durable organic materials available .If you consider mammoth ivory has been buried for thousands of years and is still around it will give you an idea of what it will take. Wood and bone will fall apart if exposed to the elements long before ivory. I buy ivory from gold mines where the only thing left from the ice age is the mammoth ivory.I have a damascus hunter with blue ivory scales that I lost outside in the gravel for over a year. With a little bit of sanding and polishing it was as good as new.