Stabilizing Set up help

[John Katt]

some requiring over a week under pressure.[/B]

A few years ago the company that supplied me with nails, started carrying 300psi nail guns and compressors I wonder what effect that would have on finishing time, twice the pressure half the time?

 

[Overmountain]

I have done some home stabilizing... For this and other projects. Here is what I learned.

Chemicals make all the difference in the world. The ones that work well also have a crappy shelf life. Be prepared to toss money in the trash or do a lot at a time.

Vacuum/pressure. Needs to be smooth and stable. And high... The hand pumps won't get it done.

Stainless and thick lexan lids work. Laboratory grade equipment not a pickle jar... Implosion = explosion. As a vessel implodes, the rush of air in bounces back blowing crap/glass/chemicals everywhere. Pickle jars are meant to hold very little vacuum for preservation of food. Not the amount we want for stabilizing. And when a glass jar is under vacuum, it is just like under pressure. The slightest ping can cause a catastrophic implosion...

Like Burl said, some woods are easier than others. In my limited experience the harder to dry, harder to stabilize. And different products work for different stuff. Cactus juice does a pretty good job and has the longest shelf life of the over the counter products I tried...

In the end, I spent more than it was worth. It was fun, but just sending stuff out or buying stabilized stock was much more cost effective.

If you want to do it for the fun and self satisfaction aspect, go for it. Just read a lot, and be prepared to spend a bit of money.

 

[Theiskell]

Thanks for the replies. Shelf life, cost and time under vacuum all make sense and a good enough reason for me to let someone else do it.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I am a former research chemist and have undertaken considerable physics and engineering studies ( that is all science). An implosion can, in many cases, send things flying across the room. An implosion of a glass vessel filled with hot liquid can be a very bad situation. The trash can would prevent injury, but won't replace the need for a proper stabilization vessel. The vessel needs to be able to withstand 28 inches of vacuum as well as 150 pounds of pressure.
As a chemist, I also understand polymerization ( my field with Virginia Chemicals was in urea-formaldehyde polymers). I dealt with high pressure reactors ( basically huge pressure cookers) that can run a t hundreds of pounds pressure as well as do vacuum extraction of air and water vapor, so I also have some hands on there, too.
Home stabilization with "juice" recipes and other home concoctions will not be close to properly stabilized wood with the right aliphatic resins. These resins cost about $500-700 a bucket and have to be used just right to avoid ruining the whole batch. They also have a very short shelf life. Using resins and formulae made for wood turners will really be a bad idea, as their form is "stabilization" is different from knifemaking requirements.

 

[John Katt]

A vessel 85% full will not throw glass, and for that matter I doubt that an empty MASON jar will explode either, pickle jars... well thats another topic

The lesson here, its safe to use a mason jar to vacuum stabilize a set of scales, but under no circumstances should you pressurize a glass jar, and of course its fun to experiment, so much fun in fact, I braved the 4 degree temperature outside and in my unheated shop today to bring you this video ;0)

[video=youtube;B-PeUVYcfQw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-PeUVYcfQw[/video]

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Vacuum is a part of professional stabilization. Mike at Wood Stabilization Specialists told me his chamber is made from a 155mm howitzer barrel. He uses pressures higher than 1,000 psi.

Do yourself a favor and send the wood to the professionals. The cost is not that high and the results are superior.

I personally would never buy a knife where the wood handle was not professionally stabilized.

Chuck

 

[John Katt]

I personally would never buy a knife where the wood handle was not professionally stabilized.Chuck

So using that logic you would never buy a knife with an oil or Lacquer finish then, both of those finishes are inferior to professionally stabilized wood too ;0)

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

So using that logic you would never buy a knife with an oil or Lacquer finish then, both of those finishes are inferior to professionally stabilized wood too

The issue here is woods that need to be stabilized.

The whole point of buying a custom knife is to get the highest quality. Using an inferior process to stabilize wood tells me the knifemaker cut corners. They knew the wood needed to be stabilized, but they refused to use to do the right thing. If they are unwilling to use the highest quality in their materials, where else are they cutting corners?

If a knife has an handle made from african blackwood, turkish walnut, snakewood or other woods that do not benefit from stabilizing, and the finishing is correctly applied, I will buy it. I have knives with these materials in my collection.

Chuck

 

[John Katt]

The issue here is woods that need to be stabilized.Chuck

actually the issue was weather a glass jar would hold up as a vacuum chamber....

With the exception of spalted wood, I think I have seen every kind of wood with every type of finish here on BF, and so I wonder, would a handle that was home stabilized to a depth of 50%, be inferior to lets say an oil finish that would be lucky to penetrate 1/8 inch

I think people continue to bash home stabilization when it most likely is superior to many of the traditional finishes we see every day

 

[tryppyr]

People don't bash it, John. They just acknowledge the difference in quality between professionally finished pieces and half-assed home brew efforts that could result in injury or a mess.

 

[IrishSteel]

Wow that went off the rails quickly, I didn't realize I'd be opening a can of worms here. The statement about "where's the fun in that" had nothing to do with the glass jar. I AGREE I don't want to be using a glass pressure chamber if I can get a hold of a metal or plastic one that won't shatter on me. The statement "where's the fun in that" was about doing it myself instead of sending it out. You can make the argument too that you get superior results having your knives professionally heat treated rather than doing it yourself with, but that doesn't stop people from going out, slapping together a furnace, and doing it themselves for the fun of it.

I'm a hobbyist, if I can go for it and have a good time doing it I will. When my skill improves and I have a few knife models that I think I could actually get some money for I'll have the blades and the wood professionally treated, but until then, I'm just enjoying having something to do besides twiddle my thumbs on a game controller.

 

[kc custom]

Go for it, I've been doing home stabilization for the better part of 13 years. Occasionally
I will buy stabilized wood but the majority I use I do myself. Not one complaint or problem
yet, and yes it took a while to learn to do it where I was happy with it. Here's the kicker--
-- I still use a pickle jar.
Ken.

 

[crank78]

A vessel 85% full will not throw glass, and for that matter I doubt that an empty MASON jar will explode either, pickle jars... well thats another topic

The lesson here, its safe to use a mason jar to vacuum stabilize a set of scales, but under no circumstances should you pressurize a glass jar, and of course its fun to experiment, so much fun in fact, I braved the 4 degree temperature outside and in my unheated shop today to bring you this video ;0)

[video=youtube;B-PeUVYcfQw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-PeUVYcfQw[/video]

well your a brave one for sure.

 

[Smithy]

I have done wood stabilization on a couple of small pieces. I have all the equipment I needed from 30 years of casting jewelry. I noticed an increase in the weight of the pieces after stabilizing, but I don't know how much the weight increase should be to indicate a full penetration. Can anyone tell me a % of weight increase that would indicate full penetration? Or is it different for each wood? I used 'Cactus Juice'.

 

[John Katt]

well your a brave one for sure.

Not really, I simply don't believe in poltergeist. spirits, and Hollywood physics, The only way you could get flying glass is if the vacuum chamber was huge allowing a large volume of air to rush in, and the glass had room to accelerate, the liquid negates both of those conditions

Science my friend Science

 

[Smithy]

John, it will be cheaper for you to buy the proper equipment. Doctors, hospitals, intensive care and therapy are much more expensive. Why take the chance?

 

[Omega Leather Works]

John, it will be cheaper for you to buy the proper equipment. Doctors, hospitals, intensive care and therapy are much more expensive. Why take the chance?

That's a good point. You can buy a glass or poly chamber that is designed specifically for the practice of stabilizing. May implode at industrial levels of vacuum, but certainly not at those levels as used with products like Cactus Juice.

Smithy, you might look at some youtube videos. There was one where the guy (I believe he sells the systems) explains the weighing, and recording of weights to check stabilization.

 

[John Katt]

John, Why take the chance?

I think my little test proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that mason jars are safe to use as vacuum chamber's, if they weren't then no way could you use them for pressure canning, which we have been doing since 1858 by the way ;0)

Vacuum is an absence of energy not an energy storage medium, atmospheric pressure at sea level is only 15.5 psi, so with there being just 2 or 3 cubic inches of space in the jar only a small amount of air needs to rush in to fill the void, far less then what would be needed to accelerate the broken glass up to "face puncturing speed" ;0)

 

[John Katt]

May implode at industrial levels of vacuum

There is no such thing as industrial levels of vacuum, maximum vacuum at sea level is 29.9 inches of mercury my little rig will reach 28.65, Don't forget higher altitude = lower maximum value that can be attained, (i'm at 740 ft above sea level) Once all the air is sucked out Nothing more can happen, Because there is nothing left to suck out

 

[Burl Source]

If you still want to try....
watch the garage sales for a paint pot.
You will still need a compressor for pressure in addition to the vacuum.