Stabilizing Wood: Physics, Chemistry, Materials, Techniques, and Performance: "Just the facts Man"

John Andrew said:
Thanks but there are many, many people who do amazing, high quality work with Cactus Juice.
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I'm glad you have success, but I tend to question your use of the "many, many" adjectives. How many do you know? I know 2.

As mentioned above, this thread is not an advertisement for K&G, nor do I want to imply that good results can't be achieved through the use of a home system and Cactus Juice. But I feel I should share my experience with the 2 systems.

About 5 years ago, I had a house on 10 acres with a bunch of maple trees that I harvested for both fuel/cooking and knife handles. I sent about a dozen blocks (spalted, curly and burl) each to 4 different makers who did their own stabilization using home vacuum-pump systems and Cactus Juice, trading blocks for stabilizing. The blocks I got back from one of the folks were indistinguishable from K&G stabilized blocks regarding weight, density, etc. One person sent back blocks that were pretty close but slightly less heavy/dense than K&G. The other two peoples samples were significantly lighter and less dense than K&G's and on one block I tried, it seemed like the resin didn't penetrate to the deeper punky/spalted sections and crumbled while shaping the handle. As a result I have about a dozen blocks in my stash that I will probably only use when I have no other options and hope they are solid.
So my conclusion is: I know it's possible to produce great results from home stabilization with Cactus Juice, but I question how many people there actually are who have spent enough time and done enough playing around with their technique to consistently produce such quality blocks.

Again, not trying to bad-mouth Cactus Juice. Merely trying to give folks who think they will save money doing it themselves as much information as possible to make as educated of a decision as possible.

PS - One other thing I should probably mention is that IMO, if you're wanting to dye the blocks but still have some of the natural wood color to remain, Cactus Juice is the way to go. I think the high pressure that K&G uses forces the dye in too much and it can wash out the grain pattern.
 
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Randydb said:
Basically it costs me about $6 cdn a block including shipping to get K&G to stabilize.
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This is about the same here in the US when you send a medium flat-rate box filled with blocks.
 
Since I am the originator of this thread, I will post two comments that are pure reactions.

1) if you read the thread, the whole thing boils down to what WEO said - good results with cactus juice are clearly possible … but it boils down to understanding and consistently controlling the process.

2) John - the other comment is that the other point of this thread is to “demystify” the stabilization process, through (hopefully) understanding the process, and by sharing real world experience and data. To me, at least, it feels inappropriate to on one hand ask for information, and then on the other hand state you will not share with this forum your own learnings.

Just my two cents…
 
weo said:
I'm glad you have success, but I tend to question your use of the "many, many" adjectives. How many do you know? I know 2.

As mentioned above, this thread is not an advertisement for K&G, nor do I want to imply that good results can't be achieved through the use of a home system and Cactus Juice. But I feel I should share my experience with the 2 systems.

About 5 years ago, I had a house on 10 acres with a bunch of maple trees that I harvested for both fuel/cooking and knife handles. I sent about a dozen blocks (spalted, curly and burl) each to 4 different makers who did their own stabilization using home vacuum-pump systems and Cactus Juice, trading blocks for stabilizing. The blocks I got back from one of the folks were indistinguishable from K&G stabilized blocks regarding weight, density, etc. One person sent back blocks that were pretty close but slightly less heavy/dense than K&G. The other two peoples samples were significantly lighter and less dense than K&G's and on one block I tried, it seemed like the resin didn't penetrate to the deeper punky/spalted sections and crumbled while shaping the handle. As a result I have about a dozen blocks in my stash that I will probably only use when I have no other options and hope they are solid.
So my conclusion is: I know it's possible to produce great results from home stabilization with Cactus Juice, but I question how many people there actually are who have spent enough time and done enough playing around with their technique to consistently produce such quality blocks.

Again, not trying to bad-mouth Cactus Juice. Merely trying to give folks who think they will save money doing it themselves as much information as possible to make as educated of a decision as possible.

PS - One other thing I should probably mention is that IMO, if you're wanting to dye the blocks but still have some of the natural wood color to remain, Cactus Juice is the way to go. I think the high pressure that K&G uses forces the dye in too much and it can wash out the grain pattern.
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Cushing H. said:
Since I am the originator of this thread, I will post two comments that are pure reactions.

1) if you read the thread, the whole thing boils down to what WEO said - good results with cactus juice are clearly possible … but it boils down to understanding and consistently controlling the process.

2) John - the other comment is that the other point of this thread is to “demystify” the stabilization process, through (hopefully) understanding the process, and by sharing real world experience and data. To me, at least, it feels inappropriate to on one hand ask for information, and then on the other hand state you will not share with this forum your own learnings.

Just my two cents…
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"And my two cents is that I’ve worked way too hard actively stabilizing literally nonstop for two years to give away what I consider to be my own proprietary techniques."

I don't post much here, but I read daily. I can't begin to express my gratitude to the MANY folks who actively and freely share their expertise in the many arts and sciences that are a part of knife making. This forum is a source of education and entertainment for me, and I'm thankful for it and everyone who makes positive contributions.

I've not seen anyone who so blatantly picks the minds of people in an effort to glean information for personal profit while making no positive contribution at all. In my experience that is not what Blade Forums is about.

I have a stabilizing setup. I have used cactus juice. I can come close to K&G. It takes about a week of vacuuming, soaking, and repeating, to get decent results. It is costly in time and money. Or I can send a batch of blocks to K&G and pay $10/lb for a great product, while I make knives.

It's a no brainer for me.

Again, for ALL those who share their knowledge and expertise in these forums, THANK YOU for the education!

Edit-- This thread has reminded me, I've been meaning for a long time to become a dues paying member here. Done!
 
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I am seriously interested if you think that you would lose business by disclosing your procedure. I have written to couple of stabilizing services in Europe in order to see how they procedure is and decide if they would be able to do a good job and got very vague answers. Everybody is very touchy about they "secret procedure".
 
I'm going to shut this down for a while. John Andrew is a basic member and he is not allowed to discuss his business, sales, customers, etc. If he gets a knifemaker membership, he is free to post all about his business and sell in The Exchange. Until then, he must refrain from discussing his business of selling scales.
The other reason is that he is not really discussing anything., He is just stating that he can do it better than anyone else with not offered sharing of information or ideas ... or proof. That is not what Shop Talk is about.
 
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Where can I find info on learning to acrylic stabilize? I can only find info on using cactus juice. Thank you!
 
The short answer is you can't do it as good or as cheap as the pros. K&G is the current main stabilizer in the USA.


If you are dead set on doing your own, you can buy a home stabilizing kit and the materials from Woodcraft. Look it up and read up on it.
 
FredyCro said:
I am seriously interested if you think that you would lose business by disclosing your procedure. I have written to couple of stabilizing services in Europe in order to see how they procedure is and decide if they would be able to do a good job and got very vague answers. Everybody is very touchy about they "secret procedure".
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In my opinion, no.

I think stabilizing companies should be thought of as something like an auto shop. The process is technically difficult, but not a secret. The issue is that running a good business is just plain old hard. In my experience, K&G has a good product but I really like everything that surrounds it as well. Brad is an honest, nice guy with a well run and reliable business. I feel confident sending him tens of thousands of dollars in product, knowing that none of it will vanish or "get lost"

I also know they wont force through product before its dry and ready to go for the sake of faster turnover. Their prices have been rising but I dont feel im being gouged.

Stabilizing is technically difficult, and to my knowledge K&G is the most experienced at it, but in my opinion the main reason for the lack of effective competitors is simply that running an effective business handling large amounts of inflow, outflow, processing and storage is really hard. In the same way there is no "Secret" to running a good auto shop beyond doing a good job, being timely and professional and having a well priced product.
 
Greenberg Woods said:
In my opinion, no.

I think stabilizing companies should be thought of as something like an auto shop. The process is technically difficult, but not a secret. The issue is that running a good business is just plain old hard. In my experience, K&G has a good product but I really like everything that surrounds it as well. Brad is an honest, nice guy with a well run and reliable business. I feel confident sending him tens of thousands of dollars in product, knowing that none of it will vanish or "get lost"

I also know they wont force through product before its dry and ready to go for the sake of faster turnover. Their prices have been rising but I dont feel im being gouged.

Stabilizing is technically difficult, and to my knowledge K&G is the most experienced at it, but in my opinion the main reason for the lack of effective competitors is simply that running an effective business handling large amounts of inflow, outflow, processing and storage is really hard. In the same way there is no "Secret" to running a good auto shop beyond doing a good job, being timely and professional and having a well priced product.
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If there was someone as widely recognized with the same standards and prices in Europe, I wouldn't lose a thougth. The only company that comes to mind is Novawood which won't stabilize for orders under 500 euro. As a hobby maker that does not sell, it is just not feasible. Same goes for the good blocks that cost 30 Eur+. If I were selling, it would be a different story altogether.

For the time being, micarta, oily hardwoods and home stabilized wood will have to do.
 
I agree that for a person who is strictly a hobbyist the cost of stabilizing a large amount of wood is high. In trhe case where the builder will be the user, lower grade methods are acceptable. like cactus Juice. Dictum in Europe. Dictum sells the Novacure resin. It is still going to cost you a lot. 99Eu for 3 kilos. One reason it isn't practical to do home stabilizing is that you can end up spending 500Eu just to get set up.

Freddy, Just a question - What did your grinder cost you?
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I agree that for a person who is strictly a hobbyist the cost of stabilizing a large amount of wood is high. In trhe case where the builder will be the user, lower grade methods are acceptable. like cactus Juice. Dictum in Europe. Dictum sells the Novacure resin. It is still going to cost you a lot. 99Eu for 3 kilos. One reason it isn't practical to do home stabilizing is that you can end up spending 500Eu just to get set up.

Freddy, Just a question - What did your grinder cost you?
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With a fridge pump and an improvised pot set up I did it for sub 100 euro (the most expensive part being the top cover). Resin is not cheap, but with 3 liters I could do at least 30-40 smaller blocks. I will do it only on open pores and soft burl wood from now on. Time is the most costly factor, prepping, drying, vacuuming, soaking, baking and cleaning the wood is a lot of work.

It was the cheapest grinder with double arm and "full" set up (grinder, 2.2 kw motor, VFD in a box, flat platen, small wheel attachment, 10" wheel and 2 work rests) I could find in Europe. It came to around 1200 Euro included shipping. It's far from perfect, but you get your money worth. I remember looking at single parts for an OSG build and I couldn't come sub 600 Eur not including any work and using the usual ebay suspect parts.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
The short answer is you can't do it as good or as cheap as the pros. K&G is the current main stabilizer in the USA.


If you are dead set on doing your own, you can buy a home stabilizing kit and the materials from Woodcraft. Look it up and read up on it.
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What is the turn-around time currently? Last time I checked it was 12 weeks. As much as I have liked working with K/G, that is just not practical for me.
 
stubbornforge said:
What is the turn-around time currently? Last time I checked it was 12 weeks. As much as I have liked working with K/G, that is just not practical for me.
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Last time I used them, a couple months back, it took a couple or maybe 3 weeks. My wood was VERY dry though, so no extra drying needed to be done
 
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