Stainless Damascus Set Up Discussion

Daniel Fairly Knives

Daniel Fairly Knives

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Let's talk stainless Damascus steel! I want to make my own billets for my folder blades and maybe more.

This Spring I am going to set up my Smithy permanently and want to get into making Damascus. I am probably going to start with 15n20/1084 until I get a good feel for everything then want to move to stainless. I've done loads of research for the last few years and have a bit of experience (but not much) with the forge as I still need a better anvil and permanent spot for everything. I lack on forging experience but am determined to make everything work. I think I know the answers to my questions from my research but would like to hear what you guys think!

1. Will the Uncle Al's 24 ton press do a good job with stainless damascus? I have heard it is a lot harder to work with than high carbon. I've also seen really nice stainless billets made with this press. I've seen a really cool portable 16 ton press that looks good too... know something like 50 tons would be best. I do not want to build a press. Any thoughts on other presses will be much appreciated!

2. Can I get away without a good anvil for a short while when I get started? I have my RR track and can do some very light straightening on some I-beam I have... but am well aware of the limitations of my current setup. I think I'll be good hand straightening folder sized stainless billets on the rr track or most likely in the press alone? What about straightening larger high carbon billets? I'm still on the search for a good anvil locally and will probably wind up buying the smaller Nimba when I can.


I'm set up with most of the other gear I need... wire feed welder for high carbon, blown horizontal forge (plans to build controlled blown vertical forge next), angle grinder, surface grinder attachment, kiln for annealing. I know I'll most likely need the better controlled forge for stainless and I assume a tig welder setup. As mentioned I'm going to start with high carbon until I have that nailed down.


Please feel free to post anything that helps or your thoughts on the process in general! I appreciate the discussion.
 
Do those pistons have enough movement? If it's too slow only thing it will do is suck out the heat from the steel. Only problem with forge welding stainless is using air tight canisters. You don't need a fancy anvil to do bladesmithing work man, just go find a biggest heaviest slug of steel from the scrapyard and or look for off cuts of 4140 already heat treated, this would probably bounce around a lot less than your RR track anvil, if it's not bouncing around I say it's good.
 
When I weld stainless and carbon, my biggest problem is not getting good welds set, but squishing the carbon steel out from between the stainless layers because it's harder to work. I believe my inexperience in forge welding was leading me to over heat the billets after the weld was set because I expected the stainless to move in a more similar fashion to the carbon. So I would get good welds and then proceed to destroy them in the press :eek:

I don't think your press will have any problems doing it. I would only ask how you plan to create the oxygen free weld environment, I was welding all seams, but I was doing san mai and not many layer damascus which may make a canister more feasible.

I've also been pondering using stainless tool wrap around a tacked billet, it only needs to hold up to getting the weld set, right? I don't know if that's been attempted before, but seems like it would be far less labor intensive than completely welding seams or cutting off a canister. But then this would preclude using a welded on stick of rebar and require tong handling.
 
redbate said:
Do those pistons have enough movement? If it's too slow only thing it will do is suck out the heat from the steel. Only problem with forge welding stainless is using air tight canisters. You don't need a fancy anvil to do bladesmithing work man, just go find a biggest heaviest slug of steel from the scrapyard and or look for off cuts of 4140 already heat treated, this would probably bounce around a lot less than your RR track anvil, if it's not bouncing around I say it's good.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure on the movement area but think it is plenty fast from what I have seen. I do plan on stacking tall billets with stainless shims (vs multiple folds) so that is something to think about.

Good stuff on the anvil too, I'd been looking at 4xxx series drops for a big bench anvil.



kuraki said:
When I weld stainless and carbon, my biggest problem is not getting good welds set, but squishing the carbon steel out from between the stainless layers because it's harder to work. I believe my inexperience in forge welding was leading me to over heat the billets after the weld was set because I expected the stainless to move in a more similar fashion to the carbon. So I would get good welds and then proceed to destroy them in the press :eek:

I don't think your press will have any problems doing it. I would only ask how you plan to create the oxygen free weld environment, I was welding all seams, but I was doing san mai and not many layer damascus which may make a canister more feasible.

I've also been pondering using stainless tool wrap around a tacked billet, it only needs to hold up to getting the weld set, right? I don't know if that's been attempted before, but seems like it would be far less labor intensive than completely welding seams or cutting off a canister. But then this would preclude using a welded on stick of rebar and require tong handling.
Click to expand...

Yes I hear they move much differently... mostly plan on all stainless billets once I get the high carbon down.

I do wonder if heat treat foil wrap would do it...
 
Over heating can be a problem in a forge. I often am much hotter then I need becaus after staring at a forge all day you loose track of color temps. I have thought about trying the heat treat oven to set the first weld. Would be easy to control the temp. Scale could be a problem but when I do stainless I weld up the billet all the way around.
 
Scale on the 304 I've been welding is a right $%@(! to grind through.
 
Dan I've read up a lot on presses and damascus making myself. I've also tried my hand at it a few times and some things were not as difficult as I thought and others were harder than I thought.

I did take a hard look at the Uncle Al press and someone on here bought one last year and shared their thoughts. I've heard some say that its a good well built press but a little under powered. The only other complaint I heard was some folks just flat out prefer a C frame press. The only press I've ever used was a C frame and I have to say I think I would prefer that over an H frame, especially if dealing with long billets.

Overall I would say the Uncle Al press is a good press but probably a bit under powered if you plan on making a lot of damascus, though the one caveat is I know nothing about stainless damascus production. The other thing I would mention is even if you find it under powered I bet you could turn around and sale it and get most of what you paid back out of it.

The other problem is that most people that made presses in the past, I don't believe they are any more. I thought I heard you can't get the Ron Clairborne (SP?) press and since his shop burnt down I don't think Larry Langden is making them anymore either. If I had unlimited funds he is who I would go to for a press.

I do see a young guy who makes them at hammer ins and the big blacksmith gathering here in Ohio. There is something coming up in March and he may be there. If I can't find it before then I'll get a business card from him if he's there in March.

-Clint
 
I didn't want to make my last post any longer than it is so I made a new one to ask you a question.

As I mentioned I don't know much of anything about stainless damascus production. But as I find more and more I like to use stainless I figured I would look into it after I was a little better equipped.

All I recall having read is that you use a canister and fill it full of argon before you tig the cap on then forge weld it. I have no idea how true this is or if this is the only way.

Would you mind give me a short primer on the steps involved in making a simple bar of stainless damascus?

Thanks

-Clint
 
I have made stainless damascus with that press and it works fine. You don't need a tig welder, mig is fine and just grind the welds off after they are set.
 
Well now, Daniel, I sure hope I'm still around when you start on Damascus carbon or stainless. And of course I hope you will want to sell a few pieces. With what I always see in your work I know I will see in your Damascus if and when you decide to sell it. It will be very suitable for folders. I've always been attracted to Damascus having another metal besides say 15N20 and 1085 . There can be more color showing with a bit of heat after etching which gives another means of showing the material besides just the pattern and as well does act as a bit of anti rusting covering.
JT are you doing any Damascus that you think might work for me? for you both and any others, You can contact and send me pictures and prices at frankniro2@gmail.com.
With thanks to Daniel creating this thread and I hope understanding my coming in like this.
Frank
 
Thanks everyone for helping me out! I'll eventually report back with progress. :cool:

Frank I'd be honored if you would use any material I made... you'll be hearing from me when it happens!
 
Thank you for that Daniel.Whenever you move ahead you always do so with quality results in what you end up showing!
Frank
 
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