Stainless Steel Survival Knife

Fanglekai said:
Geometry has more of an effect on edge retention than the alloy used. Without controlling for geometry any test of edge retention is worthless. That variable has to be controlled to produce meaningful data.

Survival knife is a marketing term that doesn't mean anything. Get a Becker tweener model and call it a day.
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Which Ankerson does! The unknown magazine article might or might not. We will never know.
 
Fanglekai said:
Survival knife is a marketing term that doesn't mean anything. Get a Becker tweener model and call it a day.
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:thumbup:

I'd also add that OP check into the warranty for a stainless knife as some makers like ESEE won't warranty them. Guess the trade off for rust resistance for durability is enough to for them to state it on their site. Not that all stainless is equal, but it's worth shopping around for some other models, as stated above, high alloy tool steels can provide this sometimes, depending on your needs. If you go the F1 route, be on the lookout for counterfeits.
 
Gaston444 said:
Well you have a choice between a test made by Knives Illustrated or Blade, mid to late 90s... I'm sorry but I can't be more specific than that: Given the wide distribution of these magazines, am I really the only one to remember the most rigorous cutlery steel test ever made by a knife magazine? Not to mention one that made 440C the winner, by a huge margin, over D2, ATS34, 154CM, the two early CPMs, and INFI?

Curiously, I do remember the article made no fuss at all about 440C's overwhelming edge-holding superiority: They just presented their findings quite flatly: I remember feeling that bit was borderline bizarre...

I do think 440C did generally beat D2 in that test (but I vaguely remember D2 being one of the few close contenders)... I'll freely admit D2 has more wear resistance, since it is used in die tools and some saws: It has after all the highest carbon content of most steels... Maybe die-tool wear resistance is not the be all end all of a fine cutting edge? 440C was generally the best edge-holder in most materials (I remember its superiority on the manilla rope cutting test being especially crushing), but there may have been a few materials were D2, or another steel, ranked ahead (by a much smaller margin than 440C beat them on other materials: At least 40-50% + on the manilla rope)...: I remember myself being mainly focussed on the beating ATS34 (still a bit in vogue back then) and even INFI were taking on most materials... The test was very comprehensive, yet the "conclusion" part seemed to have been very, very discrete for some reason...

It is a fact that more chrome, up to a point, increases edge-holding and wear-resistance: That is the scientific reality: In that context, how can you take seriously a ranking that puts 440C near the bottom? This is just laughable: 440C is one of THE standards of the steel industry (if not quite as widely used or as old as D2), and is apparently the one standard steel to which all other high wear stainless steels are compared: It has never been replaced for many industrial applications... There is no way properly heat-treated 440C is near the bottom, unless all the other cutlery steels somehow had much higher chrome or carbon percentages: Fat chance of that...

The rankings by Ankerson are totally meaningless for comparison purposes for another, far more important reason: None of the knives in Ankerson's tests were specifically made for the tests... In fact, not only are these just factory blades, with all the laughable tolerances this implies, but they are not even identical knives to begin with...

Not only are they not identical knives, they are listed as not having the same blade thickness at the top of the edge bevel (!!!)...

Do you really want to give credence to such a large potential for errors, when out there exists a test where all the blades were completely identical, made specifically for the test by a reputed custom maker? This test controlled not only the blade shape, bevel angle and thickness, but also the bevel's grit surface finish, heat-treating and cutting pressure, this accross a wide range of materials and uses... Which test do you think is the more scientific one: One that uses off-the shelf factory blades, or one that uses dozens of identical generic blades made in different steels specifically for the test?

Until we see this kind of effort, now you know the standard I consider minimal for a steel cutting test comparison to be treated seriously: All the blades must be identical, and made to high tolerances specifically for the test, with the purpose of providing an accurate comparisons for steel cutting performance.

Otherwise it is not a steel comparison test: It is a knife comparison test...

Since we already have such a test made (and apparently one that is forgotten by everyone here with an Internet-era memory), why pay any attention to later tests that introduce all kinds of unnecessary variables?

Mind you, the variables are fine if you want to compare knives: They are totally useless for forming an opinion about steel...

As to why 440C is still a superior steel, easily the near-equal (and probably better) to anything that has come since, why not listen to what Jay Fisher has to say about it?:

" As detailed in the Machinery's Handbook: "This steel has the greatest quenched hardness and wear resistance upon heat treatment of any corrosion-resistant or heat-resistant steel."

"There are new alloys all the time, and you'll see one thing in common with all of them: They compare their subjective performance details to one steel in particular. This one steel that is the benchmark for all comparisons of new stainless and wear-resistant alloy steels is (surprise) 440C."

Jay Fisher does praise D2's edge-holding as being something unbeatable, but that is still only theory largely based on how hard it is to sharpen...: He describes ATS34 as being especially tough, but that has not been most people's experience with it... In any case, he speculates that 440C's poor reputation may be due to its finicky and unforgiving heat treatment, which can produce a wide variety of results; Another reason that makes tests of off-the-shelf knives utterly useless for forming an opinion about a specific steel rather than a specific knife...

Note I claim no great knowledge of all the newer steels to have come since then, but none of them have dominated the tool industry and replaced all the older steels, so I'll stick with this: Make a rigorous test of these newer steels, and they will be included as a useful reference to make a purchasing decision...

A rigorous steel test means, at the minimum, identical generic blades, custom-made specifically for the test, using the steel manufacturer's heat-treating procedures, period. Then rigorous consistency controls at every subsequent level of the test (like cutting motion, motion angle, force, material consistency etc). Anything else is nice to hear about, but is not to be considered relevant for an opinion about a steel, instead of just a knife...

Until that happens I'll pick 440C as my first choice, and in fact probably the only reasonable choice for a large using knife. I buy mostly Randalls nowadays, strictly because they have the thinnest fixed blade V-edge bevels -0.5 mm- combined with hollow grinds (I don't care so much about their finish quality), but I'll note they also have come to the same conclusion: Their 440B is said to be often in between 440B and C in carbon content, and is in fact sometimes 440C in all but name... And in a concrete chopping test against INFI, Randall's 440B didn't exactly come out second best... Yes I know, different knives, but nice to know for a seventh rate steel right?...

Gaston
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I am sure 440C makes a decent knife. I own several acquired years ago.

The best SS compared to every other SS? Leave aside the fact that your claimed facts about relative composition are simply wrong. Your assertion, although supported by a single self-proclaimed expert, makes me wonder why the other steels are made, purchased and used. Your assertion also assumes that all the steel manufacturers are lying in the comparative data sheets, which uniformly show 440C to be significantly to hugely inferior to other products in applications. You would think someone, other than yourself and Jay, would have found them out and blown the whistle.
 
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Gaston444 said:
Well you have a choice between a test made by Knives Illustrated or Blade, mid to late 90s... I'm sorry but I can't be more specific than that: ......
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I think the first sentence tells everyone how useful this "information" really is.

After all, there's NO WAY metals have made progress in 20 years...right? :rolleyes:
 
craytab said:
Ankerson has no dog in this fight. And the reason his tests are valid is because he uses actual knives that are specifically not made for a test. Anything can be taught to pass a test.
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Nope. Ankerson's test aren't scientific either. Sorry to break it to you. There are way too many variables in his testing for it to be scientific. Anecdotal at best. You can get an idea for how the steels perform in general but there's NO hard data there really.
 
My advice is get an inexpensive Mora. Use it for several months. You might decide just to keep it. If you still want something better, you'll have a better idea of exactly what you need. Then plunk down some big bucks for a more expensive knife.
 
Well, better go with obsidian.
More rust resistant that 440C and all the rest, and can take a sharper edge than steel too. :D
 
moxie said:
My advice is get an inexpensive Mora. Use it for several months. You might decide just to keep it. If you still want something better, you'll have a better idea of exactly what you need. Then plunk down some big bucks for a more expensive knife.
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I think thats really the best route. And honestly, the route that most people "getting into" knives should probably take. If you don't like it (which is doubtful), at least you will know what you don't like/want to do differently,and can go from there.

Another option somewhat similar to the Fallkniven, is the Boker Plus Bushcraft XL. Its 440C, 4 3/8in long, and ~$80 or so.
 
Shotgun said:
Nope. Ankerson's test aren't scientific either. Sorry to break it to you. There are way too many variables in his testing for it to be scientific. Anecdotal at best. You can get an idea for how the steels perform in general but there's NO hard data there really.
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I think you need to reread what I wrote. I don't think I ever said Ankersons tests were Scientific. Nope, scratch that. I know I didn't say Ankersons tests are scientific. Heck, so does he :thumbup:

I said what I did to counter this magical mythical test from 20 years ago where the tests were very controlled and also the idea of building a knife for a test. Ankerson's tests seem much more real world to me. With knives in steels many of us own. Oh, and it was done this century.
 
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robi12 said:
Thanks to everyone for the answers. Im starting to understand. =)
I have searched all the knives you have suggested and the Fallkinven F1 seems to be the one that would fit me the best.
I don't understand steels types of steels, and the Fallkinven F1 has a Laminated VG10 blade. Is this corrosion resistant/stainless steel?

Thanks again
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Yes the laminated VG10 is rust resistant.The F1 is a good choice, IMHO.

Mine has been my outdoors knife for 7 years. Never had to "survive " by using it, but have done quite a bit of primitive camping with it.

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For me, rust has been more of an issue because of blade finish than anything else. Neglect and poor blade finishing seem to make great bed partners.

If the OP wants a stainless knife over carbon steel, so be it. I did. Just had to have S30v steel. So I bought a Benchmade 162 and so far it has been a decent knife for my needs. Not 100% sure that I would do it again though.

So, what would I recommend? Pick a stainless knife that is in the stated price range and has proper ergonomics for the needs of the OP. Throw a coat of wax on the blade for a little extra protection and be done with it. Go use the daylights out of the knife.

I would worry more about ergonomics, a good heat treatment, and the quality of the sheath more than the steel.
 
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robi12 said:
Hello everybody,
I have been searching and searching to buy a survival knife for my needs.
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Typical vague question we get around here. What are your survival needs Robert ? Do you plan on fighting off bears & boars or gangsters and pimps ? Splitting wood for building fires or building log cabins ? Are you going to cut through the jungles of The Congo ? Will you be going for two days or years ? Will you need it for hunting & food prep or will you have your food with you ? Is this knife going to be EDC or just when you want to look cool on an outing ? Will there be other tool to do some of your work ? And what are weather conditions you plan on using this knife in, on a regular basis ? The devil is in the details Roberto. Look at how far some of this thread wandered, for lack of them.

Cudeman knives look promising for the price. High Rockwell numbers and usually full tang. The Fallkniven F1 or A1 get mentioned a lot it seems. And let's not skip over SOG as well.Though I have no experience with any of these brands. On another note though. Buying a decent high carbon knife might be very telling as to your stainless needs. Humid doesn't always mean quick to rust, unless there is high salt content. And your sheath style can prohibit rust as well. Kydex & plastic help avoid rust in humid weather. Not to mention Many high carbon knives come with a protective coating as well. Ka-Bar comes to mind. Happy hunting !
 
craytab said:
I think you need to reread what I wrote. I don't think I ever said Ankersons tests were Scientific. Nope, scratch that. I know I didn't say Ankersons tests are scientific. Heck, so does he :thumbup:

I said what I did to counter this magical mythical test from 20 years ago where the tests were very controlled and also the idea of building a knife for a test. Ankerson's tests seem much more real world to me. With knives in steels many of us own. Oh, and it was done this century.
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You're disproving something with nothing. Which is nothing.
 
moxie said:
My advice is get an inexpensive Mora. Use it for several months. You might decide just to keep it. If you still want something better, you'll have a better idea of exactly what you need. Then plunk down some big bucks for a more expensive knife.
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Yep. I still prefer the mora over all my high dollar stuff. Works better.
 
Shotgun said:
Yep. I still prefer the mora over all my high dollar stuff. Works better.
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I tried a Mora...found that I prefer my higher dollar stuff. Works better. :D

The great thing is that there are tons (literally!) of knives in all possible styles, steels, handle materials and price ranges.
Every person on the planet can find a knife that fits their preference and budget. :thumbup:
 
When choosing a "user" knife, I think the most important factor is- what type of tasks do you want to perform with the knife?

After answering that question, I would focus on which type of edge grind, size and thickness of blade, handle design, and what type of steel would perform those tasks well.

Then I would ask- what can I afford?

Only after I answered those questions would I consider something like rust resistance, or not. It's my understanding that ANY steel can rust, especially if it's going to be exposed to salt water. And especially if the knifes owner thinks that just because it's "stainless" that it doesn't require care.

When I choose a tool for a job, I choose the tool that I believe will accomplish that job effectively, regardless of how rust resistant it is. And then when I am done using that tool, I wipe and/or oil it as needed. As a result, I have carbon steel tools that I have used, and sweated on for decades, that don't have any rust on them.

I know guys who carried carbon steel Kabars through the jungles of Vietnam, brought them home, and used them for the rest of their lives. If the humidity of Vietnam could not destroy or render a carbon steel knife useless, then I seriously doubt that any other sources of h20 will. Provided of course that the knifes owner practices some amount of maintenance. Which I believe is something that every tool owner should do. That is of course, if they want their tools to provide a lifetime of service.
 
It sometimes escapes notice that before WWII SS knives were rare and came in two flavors: 1) soft; and 2) brittle; despite which mankind had survived for thousands of years.

Still, no reason not to enjoy the hunt for YOUR best knife.
 
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