Stainless Steels vs. Carbon Steels

SALTY

SALTY

Gold Member
Joined
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Messages
5,806
Stck vs, automatic, Ford vs. Chevy, Mako vs. Grady White,
any thoughts on SS v. Carbon and the bests of each. Granted, they serve different purposes and most of us own some of each, but thoughts and opinions are invited.
 
Best carbon: 3V
Best stainless: 420V
To date, nothing stays tougher at higher hardness than 3V. So 3V can go thinner, i.e. "sharper" (higher cutting performance), with equal or better durability in terms of toughness and strength than anything else. If corrosion is manageable in a given application, to me that makes 3V the winner. If corrosion/rust resistance is crucial to performance in the application, 420V wins.
Once Crucible starts producing its new stainless version of CPM 3V, we may have a new candidate for best over-all. Have to wait and see, I guess.
New nitrogen-induction techniques might also obviate competitions between steels for which can go hardest at the edge, possibly re-ordering performance based on which steel remains toughest and most ductile while accepting nitrogen-induced surface hardness. Remains to be seen how this could affect the performance gap between carbon and stainless steels.

My $0.02

[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 05-13-2000).]
 
Definition of high carbon tool steel: 1% or more carbon content...falling into this category: 440C; ATS 34; BG 42; D2; 440V; 420V; W2; O1; 420V; the list goes on and on...vascowear........anyhow...the point is, the 'stainless steels' are just that...not rustless...they are high carbon tool steels, with lots of chromium....which form chromium carbides....a good thing for knife steel.

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http://www.mayoknives.com




[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 05-13-2000).]
 
I thought high carbon steel simply means a steel with enough carbon to harden to 60 HRC (as opposed to mild steel). Which would include 5160, 440A, AUS6; and exclude 420J and other steels with less than 0.6% carbon.

There are several ways to classify steel, I think of them as basically two types: simple carbon steel, and alloy steel (greater than 5% alloying elements other than the usual carbon and iron). The simple carbon steel include the 10xx series, the S series, 5160, L-6, 52100 etc.

Alloy steel would include the CPM alloys, M-2, A-2, D-2, 440 series, ATS-34 and the like. Steels are alloyed for different reasons; M-2 is designed to stay hard when red-hot, CPM steels are made for extreme edgeholding, A-2 is made for easy industrial air hardening. All of them are more stain-resistant than the simple carbon steels. But there is a whole family of steels alloyed to minimize oxidation ----- the so called stainless steels.

Basically simple carbon steels are known for their strength and toughness, (which is why they're used for car springs and construction) as well as easy sharpening. The alloyed steels are known for their performance according to their designed use.
 
Hello folks,

I feel there is a deeper difference between carbonsteels and stainless. The stainless have chronium added, and that is not so good for it's performance. I makes the steel brittle, when hardened. I feel that, for harduse knives, and knives that can be wiped down from time to time, a carbon steel is in place. On the other hand, I will use a stainless steel if I know the knife is going to end in a closet. Acctually, I am still looking for some steel with a little more carbonsteel-properties the D-2. Between D-2 and 52100.
About properties, I feel that a good 52100 blade, cryoed and triple quenched (differential), is still the best. All steels that can outcut it (supracor and the likes) will be a lot more brittle. But, it rusts.

In reality, it ia a matter of personal preference. And I choose carbon steels.
 
Hi Tom,
Sorry to contradict, but chromium carbide ist the stuff that just PROHIBITS stainless steels to be really stainless.....
When a stainless steel is heated/quenched then the chromium ist "mostly" free in the matrix and the steel is at its "most" stainless state. The more you temper (especially if you temper high, to get some secondary hardening or, worse, to anneal) the more chromium carbide will form, until, when fully soft, the steel is "no longer stainless at all".
Unless there is MUCH more chromium in the alloy than 12% => steel 304, e.g. with 18% Cr AND 8% Ni is stainless (but also free of carbon/austenitic/non hardenable.....)
Happy sharpening
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D.T. UTZINGER
 
ZUT, were did TOM go wrong? You state the unless a Stainless steel when not quenched is not stainless unless it is over 12% chromium. To begin with a stainless steel is not considered a stainless steel unless it has at least 13% Cr in it, so your 12% point is meaningless as it borders on stainless steel but is not truly considered stainless. D-2 is a good example of a carbon steel on the edge of being called a stainless steel. ATS-34 is barely a stainless steel, but it is a stainless steel. The 440 series is definitely stainless steel and shows it in the corrosion resistance as are the AUS-6,8 and 10 series.

Chromium is the factor that makes stainless steel corrosion "resistant".
 
I disagree with your original premise that stainless and carbon steels are for different purposes. I think it's probably more accurate to say that they are for the same purposes. Carbon steels generally outperform stainless steels in every respect except rust and corrosion resistance. Stainless steel is a compromise to provide for a more attractive blade. I don't think it's any more complex than that. Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
I'll second what Fred said. In applications where corrosion resistance is needed one finds stainless steels being used, but otherwise non-stainless is preferred for performance. I have very few tools in the garage that are stainless, which also seems to be the case in the tool/model shop at work, and thinking back on my stint in the military about the only stainless that I recall were the utensils in the mess kits that we never used and the dog tags. Lower alloy content usually makes for more ductile steel, and the game seems to be one of selecting the right, which usually means minimum, alloy content and hardness level for a given application. As an example looking at steels used in high speed steel drill bits the lower alloy M50 is evidently used where breakage is a problem, and it looks like it would make for a decent knife steel. In my opinion the tools in Swiss army knives and multi-tools should also be offered in the carbon steels that tools are usually made of, maybe something like a 6150 chrome-vanadium steel.

 
Stainless, or non stainless they all work and make good to exeptional blades if heat treated properly and the right type of steel and proper blade design are picked for the apropriate task.
I will not sugjest any type of stainless, air hardening steel to a customer for a large knife that I know he will be using for any type of chopping. If it is tempered down enough to withstand inpack you loss edge holding.
On the other hand I don't promote the use of non stainless steels as hunting knives. I am the worlds worst offender of puting a wet possibly bloody knife back into its sheath.
As for personal preferences 440C or ATS-34 for hunting knives and forged 52100 or 5160 for blades that are going to be physically abbused but can get immediate TLC after use.
Choose the right blade steel and the proper blade design for the task at hand and everything else will fall into place.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
OK Will, I can't stand it anymore. Tell me about Stainless CPM-3V.

And for the chrome is good or bad bunch... CPM-3V is about as impact resistant as any steel made, AND it has 7.5% chrome. Go figure.
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And for the high carbon bunch... CPM-3V has just 0.8% carbon, but the last small blades I had heat treated hit Rc61. Go figure.
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Just when you think you have it all figured out... You don't.
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Jerry--
I have no details on stainless 3V--just scuttlebutt through the grapevine. One of my sources is Ed Schott, who as you know is distributing 3V. He has told me he understands from Crucible that they have a stainless version of 3V in the works, but doesn't know what elemental percentages will be changed besides bringing up the chromium.

Also, go figure is right. I wasn't going to say anything--I figured someone more expert than student would say something, and I certainly consider myself no more than a student--but in my study of knife steels I've always understood that steel is the product of carbon and iron, and that there are three steel classifications based on carbon content: mild steel at under .4%; medium carbon steels at between .4 and .6%; and high carbon at above .6%, with the .6% (actually .65%) figure being the percentage required to bring simple steel up to maximum toughness. Maybe someone could comment further on that.

--Will
 
I'm with Fred.....my carbon blades have always been better in the using dept. than stainless steel blades.
Talonite makes an excellent material for a blade though it is not a steel!
My two cents!!
 
Yeah. The big difference in performance is in toughness. For instance, you can't make a sword or axe out of stainless steel: it's simply too brittle.

I just recently started to use carbon steel bladed knives and I like them a lot. Modern knife buyers may tend to get caught up in the latest fashionable stainless steels and neglect the good old carbon steels.

One of the cool things about carbon steel is that it's easy to sharpen. It seems like the burr forms quickly and is easy to detect. Plus, it also seems that carbon steel gets slightly sharper than most stainless steels.

As far as corrosion goes, if you're in a relatively dry enviroment and keep the blade clean, you can pretty easily prevent rust damage. Carbon steel will enventually discolor though, which is probably why so many people buy stainless.

A lot of modern knife buyers insist that the blade stay in pristine condition, which is not unreasonable considering that many modern knives cost over $100. I personally used to be a real "stainless steel sissy"; checking my knives every day for the slightest hint of corrosion and crying when I saw even a small fleck of pepper on the blade. A stained carbon steel blade is so much better though; it has character and actually looks like a real knife.
 
what is the point of this thread??? high carbon tool steel has one percent or more carbon content....most knife steels fall into this category....ATS 34 is considered a stainless steel and yet if properly heat treated it is one of the toughest steels on the market...ask Strider Knives....thats ALL they use and have a great reputation for knives that are outstanding in performance.. they say its the proprietary heat treat that they have with Paul Bos. sure some steels work better for some purposes, and some dont. like Jerry said...what about CPM 3V?? or 10V.....420V has more chromium and carbon than any of the so called carbon steels and outperforms them ALL...will say it again, out performs them all, except maybe 52100. I have made many a machete out of .187" ATS 34 and have witness them bouncing off rocks, hitting concrete, chopping down trees..all with no ill effect to the blade....the proof is in the pudding...we are in the 21st century folks.....german steel that rusts easily is for your grandfathers who wont be convinced....even with the facts...their minds are made up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
There are a number of high alloy steels that will hold an edge longer than carbon steel. I'm sure Vasco-Wear will far out last 52100.

But I've yet to see any super alloy out perform a marquenched, differential tempered 5160 blade in the toughness department. I doubt even CPM 3V could touch it. As far as Strider is concerned, I'm sure if they didn't need to use it in a maritime environment, they wouldn't have picked ATS-34. Sure their knives are tough, but look how thick they are.

Stainless steels certainly have their uses. I would not consider a rust prone steel for a pocket knife. However, carbon steels are far from being obsolete. There is a heck of a lot we don't yet understand about them.

[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 05-15-2000).]
 
420V is brittle compared to many other steels, something that even Crucible states. CPM-3V is tough for a tool steel, especially one with similar edge holding, and while it may not be as tough as a lot of lower alloy steels it seems to offer a good balance of properties for a knife. A more brittle steel can be used to make a tougher knife but it will have to be thicker/shorter/wider than a tougher steel. Non-stainless steels aren't 'old fashioned', in fact they are what most tools like chisels, planes, drills, taps, files, shear blades, saws, and such are made of. If stainless steels offered better performance than carbon or tool steels in something like a chisel, which is a good example of a tool needing to be tough as well as holding an edge, they would be made of stainless steels on a regular basis like most knives are these days. But they aren't.
 
If anyone has a materials engineering book handy, they can pull off Charpy and yield strength values. This will cut through all the BS and tell everyone what the toughest steels are.

johno, plain steels are used for tools because they are cheap and easy to heat treat and forge really well. Stainless steels are more expensive and have more complex heat treats and are much harder to work.

Goat, if you get the charpy values for both 3V and 5160, we will all know what is tougher. Do you have these values or do you know from personal experience that 5160 blows everything else away. I really would like to know how you know this.
 
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