Stainless That Behaves Like Carbon?

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cm_bushman

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Oct 22, 2012
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The more knives I use, the more I like carbon steel. S30v, M4, and k390 all have great properties, but for the best combination that really defines "knife steel" to me, (toughness, strength, ease of sharpening, and fine edge holding), it is difficult to beat a well-treated 1084 or 1095 carbon blade.

The one aspect of carbon that I dislike, especially in the kitchen and outdoors, is its tendency to rust. I have not had an issue by and large, but it has led to the ruin of a few blades that had been overlooked for a few days or thought to be in good (sheath) storage conditions. Oil and forced patinas help, and are mandatory (not to mention pretty) on all of my non-stainless knives, but it doesn't address the root cause.

So, with that in mind, what stainless alloys, in your experience, behave most like carbon steels? I hear Sandvik steels are in this realm, with fine grain structure and ease of sharpening, though with reduced toughness. I have also been interested in relatively low-alloy tool steels like W2 and 52100 to see if they offer similar performance with a bit more rust resistance on par with M4 or other high-alloy tool steels.
 
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M390/204p, S90v, s110v, cts-xhp, S35vn, Elmax

All of those are relatively high on edge retention and impact resistance (with the correct heat treatment)
 
I have also found 14c28 to be an extremely good steel - it takes a very fine edge and seems to have very good wear and impact resistance. I actually prefer it to the comparatively brittle and toothy S30V, despite the slight loss of edge retention.
 
I would have to check my references but I believe two metallurgists I know of JD Verhoeven and R Landes feel 13c26 or AEB-L is the closest to a stainless 52100.

From my experiences Nitrobe-77 as well.

12c27 is the closest one can come to a stainless O-1 IMO.
 
I prefer carbon steel but for stainless I'm good with S35VN and CPM 154.

I don't need a super steel...those two take a screaming edge in seconds and hold it for long enough.
 
cm_bushman said:
The more knives I use, the more I like carbon steel. S30v, M4, and k390 all have great properties, but for the best combination that really defines "knife steel" to me, (toughness, strength, ease of sharpening, and fine edge holding), it is difficult to beat a well-treated 1084 or 1095 carbon blade.

The one aspect of carbon that I dislike, especially in the kitchen and outdoors, is its tendency to rust. I have not had an issue by and large, but it has led to the ruin of a few blades that had been overlooked for a few days or thought to be in good (sheath) storage conditions. Oil and forced patinas help, and are mandatory (not to mention pretty) on all of my non-stainless knives, but it doesn't address the root cause.

So, with that in mind, what stainless alloys, in your experience, behave most like carbon steels? I hear Sandvik steels are in this realm, with fine grain structure and ease of sharpening, though with reduced toughness. I have also been interested in relatively low-alloy tool steels like W2 and 52100 to see if they offer similar performance with a bit more rust resistance on par with M4 or other high-alloy tool steels.
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Um, care to elaborate on how they were ruined? I'm fairly confident I could leave any of my carbon knives outside in my backyard all winter, take about twenty minutes cleaning them up and they would be serviceable. not sure how a knife could be ruined by just a couple days corrosion, even if covered in blood and salt water
 
goodeyesniper said:
Um, care to elaborate on how they were ruined? I'm fairly confident I could leave any of my carbon knives outside in my backyard all winter, take about twenty minutes cleaning them up and they would be serviceable. not sure how a knife could be ruined by just a couple days corrosion, even if covered in blood and salt water
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He probably has a different definition of serviceable than you
 
I second m390 , easy to sharpen , lot of bite , cuts dull well , very similar to m4, does not "slick off" like most stainless , my favorite stainless so far .
 
13C26/AEB-L are very highly-thought-of for their extremely fine grain and ease of sharpening, with decent toughness and good edge-holding. Proper HT is, as always, important.
 
singularity35 said:
For me M390 behaves similar to M4...
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Thanks for the quick reply! I'm familiar with M390, and it certainly does behave much like M4, but not like a carbon steel. M390 takes on a very aggressive edge and for me, it forms a burr a little more readily than M4 and especially plain carbon steels like 1095. I'm not very adept at sharpening, however, so don't take that as a knock against the steel.

marthinus said:
I would have to check my references but I believe two metallurgists I know of JD Verhoeven and R Landes feel 13c26 or AEB-L is the closest to a stainless 52100.

From my experiences Nitrobe-77 as well.

12c27 is the closest one can come to a stainless O-1 IMO.
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Thanks Marthinus, I have a lot of respect for those recommendations just from reading some of your previous posts through the years. I think I'll give 13c26 and 14c28 a go, since I have also looked over R. Landes work, and I hear great things about both steels besides. From what I understand about AEB-L and Nitrobe-77, I think availability in a knife I want and can afford will be a limiting factor.I have tried 12c27, and it seemed just like an all-around upgrade to 440c to me.

blame it on god said:
FYI, 52100 is not stainless at all. Without proper care it will rust and pit very fast.
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I know, I tried to make it clear that even though I am aware of its status as a low-alloy tool steel (i.e. not stainless), I was hoping that the dash of nickle and chrome in some of that family of steels would lead to a good compromise in that family of alloys between toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance. M4 exhibits these properties, but in my use generates a toothy edge rather than that "laser like" smooth cutting edge of 1084 or even O-1.

goodeyesniper said:
Um, care to elaborate on how they were ruined? I'm fairly confident I could leave any of my carbon knives outside in my backyard all winter, take about twenty minutes cleaning them up and they would be serviceable. not sure how a knife could be ruined by just a couple days corrosion, even if covered in blood and salt water
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After running around camping and hunting for a few days, I had accidentally left one of my skinning knives in 1095 in its leather sheath with blood still on it (it was dark, and I was cold, don't hate me!), then after returning home, I dug it out of the bottom of my pack and lo and behold, major pitting. I was able to polish it up, but it still looks pretty rough, and serves as a reminder for my per-enthusiast foolishness. Don't get me wrong, I could still use it, it's just not my preference with that past experience.

kamagong said:
Take a look at VG10.
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I did consider VG-10 for a long time, and I ended up getting to use a few Spydercos in that steel on my quest for the "stainless carbon". It seemed to be a fine steel, much like 154cm, but it still had that stubborn disposition to burr when sharpening, and it took on a somewhat toothy edge for my tastes.
 
james terrio said:
13C26/AEB-L are very highly-thought-of for their extremely fine grain and ease of sharpening, with decent toughness and good edge-holding. Proper HT is, as always, important.
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Benjamin Franklin may have been right when he said "There never was a good knife made of bad steel" but he neglected to mention how many bad knives have been made with good steel but bad heat treatment. :D
 
cm_bushman said:
I know, I tried to make it clear that even though I am aware of its status as a low-alloy tool steel (i.e. not stainless), I was hoping that the dash of nickle and chrome in some of that family of steels would lead to a good compromise in that family of alloys between toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance.
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52100 has no corrosion resistance to speak of. Very nearly all the chromium (and there's not much of it) is tied up in carbides. At those levels, alloying elements like chrome, tungsten, nickel, molybdenum etc are strictly there to promote through-hardening, and improve wear-resistance by forming carbides.

Depending on carbon content, a steel needs at least 7 or 8% chrome (and usually a good deal more) before it even begins to add rust-resistance. 52100 is an excellent, tough steel that takes a lovely fine edge, but it's not at all a good choice for someone concerned about stain"less"-ness.

FortyTwoBlades said:
Benjamin Franklin may have been right when he said "There never was a good knife made of bad steel" but he neglected to mention how many bad knives have been made with good steel but bad heat treatment. :D
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Indeed... it's frighteningly easy to ruin a fine piece of steel :(
 
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I think almost every well known stainless steel has been mentioned in this thread.
So just take your pick... They all act like stainless ;)
 
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