Stainless vs. carbon damascus

[Larry in KY]

I have been thinking about buying a stainless Damascus blade and would like to know how it compares to regular, carbon damascus.
I have had several carbon damascus blades over the years and love them!
Specifically, how does the stainless compare as to edge holding and ease of sharpening?
Thanks!

 

[Blues]

Larry,

I think that may be a tough one to answer if only because there is such a wide variety of carbon damascus (and its ingredients)to begin with.

But, I just wanted to point out that though there is less variety (in my limited experience) when it comes to stainless damascus, I can think of at least one that does a good job in the looks, cutting and resharpening dept.

Mike Norris' stainless damascus uses (in the example I have) a D2 core sandwiched between the other ingredients. This is on my mini Apogee by our own Darrel Ralph. I believe that he also makes some with a core made of either CPM-440V or similar.

I'd suggest asking Darrel and Kit Carson since they have wide experience in this area. I know that during my own past conversations with both makers they each enthusiastically recommended Norris' stainless damascus in terms of the qualities you seek, and said it was the best in their opinions.

Hope this helps a little.

Blues

------------------
Live Free or Die

Blues' Knife Pix

 

[Paracelsus]

This is a great question and one that I am very curious about as well. I do not have any direct experiance with stainless damascus so I have little to offer. But I tried to organize my thoughts a little:

One, for the steel to be 'stainless' it must by definition have a greater than 12% free chromium in the alloy. I do not generally prefer high chromium steels to low chromium steels. The high chromium content produces different types of carbide crystal formation and significantly changes the mechanical properties of the material at very small scales (the edge of the blade)

Two, most makers whose opinions I trust say that a Good pattern welded blade will be at Best, only as good as the harder of the two steels used in its making. It is quite possible during welding to introduce significant flaws (poor welds, scale inclusions, and the like).

Hypothesis: a stainless pattern welded (damascus) blade should At Best have the properties of the best steel used in its making. What are the attributes and limitations of those steels?

The working properties of any blade are determined during the heat treating steps (annealing, normalizing, hardening, and tempering).

This is already an Art, part science, part craft and intuition. To the extent that stainless steels are heat-treated in a very different manner from carbon steels, and that pattern welding may introduce significant changes to the 'optimal' heat treatment, are these blades inferior performers?

Stainless steels are reputed to be more difficult to forge. Few smiths forge stainless steels. I don't know if this is because of a lack of technical skills, or that the resulting material is not worth the trouble of making and results in a poor blade material.

I have no idea what the answer really is. Stainless damascus is produced by only a few smiths (Mike Norris, Devin Thomas, and at least one factory in Sweden). I am very interested in a stainless damascus gents folder. I would really like a stainless blade so that I can use the knife to open oranges, and other fruits which have a tendency to discolor carbon steel damascus. But would I be buying only a collectors piece whose blade steel is not a good performer?

Anybody used a stainless damascus piece really hard? Or performed any sort of destructive testing? This is a great question. I hope someone has some direct experience or knowledge about this important question.

Paracelsus

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 08-13-2000).]

 

[Larry in KY]

Thanks Blues & Paracelsus....what really got me interested in the stainless vs. carbon damascus was what I had heard from a couple of guys, they said that stainless was simply better in the using dept. I find that hard to believe....IMHO, stainless does not beat carbon for a using blade,thus how does stainless damascus outperform carbon damascus....in general terms? In appearance, the stainless damascus appears very nice, however, I'm interested in "using" the blade and really don't care how nice looking it is.
I'd sure like to hear from some who have compared the two!!

 

[Arthur Washburn]

Where to start, as this is the second time Ive had to write this as my puter freaked out and I lost my thesis before it posted.

As a knife maker that works almost exclusively in damascus and being production manager for "Devin Thomas Damascus" I have considerable experiance with stainless damascus.

Devin Thomas and Mike Norris use about the same mix in thier standard stainless mixes AEB-H (a swedish scaple steel) and 304 (non hardening stainless steel) Devin also uses a 440C and 304 mix for some of the exotic patterns. Mike adds D-2 (not actually a true stainless but a tool steel)to bring up the carbon count. IMHO this is not nessasay as long as the carbon count is above 6 points the steel should obtain optimum hardness when heat treated properly. The AEB-H has enough carbon content to keep the mix over 6 points.

Devin and Mike also use about the same process to weld thier steels. This being said I can tell you two things. 1. There are no welding flaws or scale inclusions 2. The steels are capable of getting at least 55 on the rockwell scale and reaching 57 on occasion when heat treated properly. For these mixes of stainless the process of heat treating differs only in the temp when compared to carbon steels. The heat treat is 1975 degrees for ten min quench in oil. temper at 350 for 1 hour twice sub zero quench can be used. I know the guys at crucible say it does nothing but I routinely gain 1 point on the rockwell scale after a sub zero quench so I will continue to recommend it.

IMHO some of the bad rap that stainless damascus has received is due to inexperianced knife makers trying to do thier own heat treat. I get calls where makers have recieived improper information on heat treating and are mad at me because they ruined the steel. (I havent figured out why they should be mad at me but thats for another thread)

Para I can tell you that the reason there are not many makers of stainless damascus is it is very labor intensive to forge. It takes about twice as long to forge a 12 inch bar of stainless as it does to do a 12 inch bar of carbon. You are correct in stating that there are also some tech skills involved that are differant from carbons but to state them would be giving away trade secrets.

Para I routinely use stainless damascus for every day cutting chores and the edge holding and cutting ability are very good. Its also easy to sharpen and touch up the edge. I have made custom kitchen knives for people and they love the stainless. I have also done destructive tests on it and examined the grain structures of the stainless. It is very refined and small as it should be. It is also very stain resistant and thats the key word resistant. As there are no true stainless steels but there are Stain Resistant Steels. I beleive the term "Stainless Steel" was actually a trade mark at one time and still may be. I cut all sorts of fruits and veggies with my stainless damascus and as long as I clean them I have no trouble. My wife recently washed my "Bill Ankrom" folder with a Devin Thomas Stainless blade and it had no discoloration at all. She also uses a custom stainless damascus paring knife at work that I made for her. She perfers it to all the other knives at work and her co-workers are jealous cause she wont share, lol.

All that being said Larry if you want the best edge holding damascus GET CARBON DAMASCUS. Nothing holds an edge better than high carbon steels IMHO. If you want a very good edge holding damascus that needs very little maintenace buy something made with stainless damascus. Its easy to sharpen and looks good. Chris Reeve (Chris Reeve Knives), Ernest Emerson(Emerson Knives), Tony Marfione (Micro Tech), William Henry Knives and Buck are just a few of the production companies that regularly buy our stuff for thier custom divisions.

I hope this disertaion helps

Arthur D. Washburn
ADW Custom Knives
AKA Beowulf in bladeforums.com chat.

 

[Paracelsus]

Beowulf, thank-you so much for your 'dissertation'! That was an excellent treatise on stainless damascus production and use. I certainly wouldn't want you to give away any of your secrets about how you fellows make the stuff, but any worries I had about it are gone. I appreciate an honest answer that makes sense, even if your gonna keep it somewhat mysterious.

I own some carbon steel damascus blades, but the majority of my knives are plain carbon steel. They just make more sense as users. I hate to risk messing up a damascus blade. I buy them for their beauty, and potential as users, but only rarely actually carry and use them.

I am interested in a stainless damascus blade because I want to carry and use a beautiful pattern welded blade without too much worry about tarnish or discoloration. That it is not superior to carbon steel damascus in cutting, but still makes a very fine blade steel, makes a lot of sense. Thank-you very much for sharing your expertise

Paracelsus