stainless vs carbon threads?

M

MCoughlin

Joined
Feb 1, 2005
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I know this has probably been discussed to death but the "search" only seems to work about 10% of the time:thumbdn: :barf: . I was wondering if someone could direct me to any threads on stainless vs carbon steels and the benefits of each etc.
Thanks,
Mike
 
It is like saying which car is best? Best at what.A Ferrari is fast,a truck is strong,a minivan carries a lot of kids....see where I'm going.
A basic answer is (boy is this going to start something going):
Carbon steel is easier to use for novices due to low cost,easier forging/grinding (usually), and the ability to HT at home with basic equipment.Carbon steel often creates a sharper edge.
Stainless is tougher (usually) and resists corrosion and staining more than carbon.Some stainless alloys can be made very hard,and still not be too brittle.
This is just a generalized answer,and not meant to be a flat law of metallurgy.
Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
Stainless is tougher (usually) and resists corrosion and staining more than carbon.Some stainless alloys can be made very hard,and still not be too brittle.
Click to expand...

Hope ya don't mind my butting in here, but I think you've got that backwards, bladesmth. As a rule, lower alloy plain carbons are much tougher than stainless, especially if we're talking about impact resistance. The toughest stainless steels don't have even half the impact resistance of the better carbons.
 
Bah, humbug, Stacy, just bah, humbug!:D

There! Someone was going to come along and say it anyway. Since I mostly agree with you, I'm hoping maybe that'll keep it from getting personal! :D
 
If you're just starting, start with 1095 - admiralsteel sells it very cheaply.

About the only use that it is questionable for is as kitchen knife. Some people do like patina it develops, but one has to be fairly careful to maintain a kitchen knife made out of 1095 (or any other non-stainless
steel).

Back to the subject of 1095: it grinds easily, is real easy to heat treat,
scaling/decarb is minimal, will hold a sharp edge just fine. Easy to re-sharpen and every worthy male should enjoy that activity anyways.

Now, when you come to a point where 1095 does not cut it for you anymore, in a specific application, THEN you can look at using stainless/tool steels.

Read through Goddard's books - he some nice advices in there, on
what steel to use for what.
 
I understand what you mean Possum,and thanks Fitzo:
There is a good article in Blade magazine's new issue (Feb 2006) on the merits of carbon steel.It discusses the pros and cons of carbon versus stainless.
When I referred to "toughness" I knew that would get someone going.The toughness I was referring to was a general term,not just impact resistance.Take a 220 belt and grind 1095 then grind S30V, and tell me which resisted the belt more.I knew it would be a problem word because toughness means different things to different people (almost everyone would agree that stainless is tougher to forge,grind,polish and sharpen).The edge on carbon will survive flexing and impact better than many stainless alloys.It is far easier to sharpen and re-sharpen.The hands down plus for carbon is the ability to HT in a variety of ways not available in stainless (at least not for most of us),such as creating a hamon, differential tempering and hardening,edge quenching,etc.You can HT carbon with a plumbers torch,a milk carton of used motor oil, and a kitchen oven.
Finally, anyone who has forged stainless knows why most forging guys use carbon!
The bottom line is that a little oil and occasional touch up on the stone solve most of carbon steel's shortfalls,stainless's problems require lots of money.
 
I agree with everything Stacy said except the terminology. Toughness refers to resistance to breaking, which would factor into edge chipping, breaking off points, etc; with strength refering to resistance to deformation which would be bending and edge rolling. Being tough to grind, polish, sharpen, etc would be abrasion resistance. That's a two sided coin though, while it's tougher to sharpen it also tends to hold that edge longer.
 
Dan Gray said:
hey how tuff do you really need it.:eek:
edge holding is where it's at,,,,,,,,,,,
yeah baby :jerkit: :D :foot: this will get good fast haha:D

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288176&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
Click to expand...

.................:confused: :D OK temper SS at a higher temp if you want less out of SS and it will sharpen easier and it will be tuffer..
lets just jump back in time and not use our technology..:confused:

lets get the pop corn out and ruffle up some feathers..:foot:

I use both tell me what you want and I'll make it for you..
if you don't use SS you can't say that can you..this leads us up to..
most of those that don't use SS can't really comment on it..
the ones that never have used SS , should not brag up carbon steels.
the ones that can't afford the SS should just say so instead of putting it down
the right tool for the right job gentlemen..
to each their own I say..the customer is always right he has the money..:thumbup: ,
 
Dan Gray said:
...........
the right tool for the right job gentlemen..
to each their own I say..
Click to expand...

Well said, Dan! There's plenty of room for everybody. There are all sorts of buyers very knowedgable about steels who prefer SSs for their own reasons.

Buster was still making knives out of 440C when he passed, and, last I heard, he didn't have a lack of customers. :rolleyes:
 
fitzo said:
Well said, Dan! There's plenty of room for everybody. There are all sorts of buyers very knowedgable about steels who prefer SSs for their own reasons.

Buster was still making knives out of 440C when he passed, and, last I heard, he didn't have a lack of customers. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

440c:eek: :barf: :barf: :barf:

:D :D
 
Thanks guys,
I realize different steels are good for different things depending on usage. My main question I suppose would be is stainless steels only advantage the fact that it's stainless? It sure seems that way. And if this is so is it really worth it to give up all the other benefits of carbon steel....ummm I would say no. I started out with stainless but with the exception of personal preference for customers who like stainless...I will be making mine mostly from carbon steels. they seem to have so much more to offer as far as versatility.

Thanks for all the responses though. It's good to hear different opinions on the subject.

Mike:D
 
mikxx1 said:
My main question I suppose would be is stainless steels only advantage the fact that it's stainless? It sure seems that way. And if this is so is it really worth it to give up all the other benefits of carbon steel....ummm I would say no. I started out with stainless but with the exception of personal preference for customers who like stainless...I will be making mine mostly from carbon steels. they seem to have so much more to offer as far as versatility.

Mike:D
Click to expand...
:confused:
all the other benefits of carbon steel:confused:
look at the carbon content in the SS's 154CM has 1.05 carbon,
the only thing you'll give up in MHO is not using it as a pry bar it may brake in stead of bending, you'll destroy it anyway..we are knife makers,, a pry bar is not hard to make, if that is what we want....
with SS
things like more $$ to make
a more complicated HT ,harder grinding, learning how to sharpen them, the Cryo,,
makes you wonder why we who use it put up with it, there's got to be a reason for it right?? we all aren't just out for bad time in knife making..

there is a trade off to using simple carbon steels..
from differential HT, easy field sharpening, rusting..
TO SS
more $$ to make
more complicated HT ,harder grinding, learning how to sharpen them:)

there is a ton of other steels in between to use also..the right tool for the right job and a big personal preference in what you are capable in working with and making. in not knowing
it's easy to mess up any steel,
if you are good at making with the simple steels and not with the SS then the SS will do you no good..just my 2 cents :)
 
All I'm saying is it seems stainless steels only true benefit is just that...the stain resistance. That's why I started this thread. To find out if there is anything else that 's great about stainless...and so far no one has been able to point anything out. As far as I can see anyway. So far most of my knives have been stainless so there's no need to give me the confused look (and I know what high carbon stainless is, I'm a knifemaker). When I say carbon I'm not only referring to the "carbon content" of the steel. I'm talking about the options open to the maker when it comes to heat treat. I'm saying that I personally would trade the stainless aspect for a nice transition line or hamon. I don't mind a little maintenance as far as oiling etc., if it gives me an excuse to play with my knives. The fact carbon steel won't explode (when heat treated for the purpose) when stressed in an emergency situation is nice too. I've played with stainless as far as breakage is concerned. As far as sharpening I don't know what you are saying but I have found sharpening carbon steel to be no more difficult than stainless and vice versa. Maybe some stainless like say s60v is a bugger to sharpen (and grind) but for the most part...not a huge difference. It depends on the steel and how it's heat treated right? I'm not going to take a side, I use both. I'm just saying I think stainless is a bit over rated and I am dedicating myself to learning carbon steels attributes as well. So far I have been impressed with what carbon steels have to offer.

Also...stainless might be a bit more expensive but I really don't see that much of a difference.
Even if it's twice as expensive for stainless your still only going to have to add 20 or 30 bucks to the price and most people looking at custom work aren't concerned about 20 or 30 bucks. If they are tell them to go buy a production knife.
Mike

Dan Gray said:
:confused:
all the other benefits of carbon steel:confused:
look at the carbon content in the SS's 154CM has 1.05 carbon,
the only thing you'll give up in MHO is not using it as a pry bar it may brake in stead of bending, you'll destroy it anyway..we are knife makers,, a pry bar is not hard to make, if that is what we want....
with SS
things like more $$ to make
a more complicated HT ,harder grinding, learning how to sharpen them, the Cryo,,
makes you wonder why we who use it put up with it, there's got to be a reason for it right?? we all aren't just out for bad time in knife making..

there is a trade off to using simple carbon steels..
from differential HT, easy field sharpening, rusting..
TO SS
more $$ to make
more complicated HT ,harder grinding, learning how to sharpen them:)

there is a ton of other steels in between to use also..the right tool for the right job and a big personal preference in what you are capable in working with and making. in not knowing
it's easy to mess up any steel,
if you are good at making with the simple steels and not with the SS then the SS will do you no good..just my 2 cents :)
Click to expand...
 
You mentioned the benefits of carbon that's why the :confused: look

That's why I started this thread. To find out if there is anything else that 's great about stainless...
Click to expand...
if you are using SS ( and I have NO reason to dought you on anything you say) you should know I would think by testing?..a High Carbon blade can be made to be tested
in about 30 min's, other than the temper time.

I have some questions?
lets get to know you some..you didn't mention you were a knife maker..in your first posts..so I assumed you not a maker or very new to it....

just what SS do you use?
do you use Cryo on your SS?
do you double Temper ?
do you snap temper?
do you plate quench?
air quench or oil quench?
how long have you been making sellable knives?
I don't see you listing a web site or an address to sell from?
do you have customer references?
you are a steel worker I see but it's about all you placed in your CP for anyone to view..
other than your about 30 YsO


SS done right , edge retention..and rust resistance over simple H/C steel,
but that's only my opinion. but still they have their place. I can't imagine ever giving either one up.?

I've never had a blade explode on me...
I'm a Knife maker too and I Know the difference between the steels..as I said the right tool for the right job..I use both where needed.
guess I can't help you anymore than what I've said..

you seem to get defensive if someone says anything,
you say your a knife maker?? I don't know you, I know nothing of you and have not seen your work and you're asking for answers that are littering this whole forum..
I know you said can't use the search ..
Tell me what makes you a knife maker? I'm interested in what points of view
makers think of themselves.
I'll take your word for it..it's all I can do..at this point..;)

My main question I suppose would be is stainless steels only advantage the fact that it's stainless? It sure seems that way. And if this is so is it really worth it to give up all the other benefits of carbon steel....
Click to expand...

personally I know of no maker that would give up SS once he knows how to work it and use it. and
particularly if he has a good customer base, as said I make and sell both
and offering both most of my customer want the SS

I guess the advantage of the SS over the HC would be,,, it's what my customers want most of the time..it's my answer to your question, the next guy will have a different answer I'm sure, so I'd say your back to your own views on it.. :o
 
Dan Gray said:
You mentioned the benefits of carbon that's why the :confused: look


if you are using SS ( and I have NO reason to dought you on anything you say) you should know I would think by testing?..a High Carbon blade can be made to be tested
in about 30 min's, other than the temper time.

I have some questions?
lets get to know you some..you didn't mention you were a knife maker..in your first posts..so I assumed you not a maker or very new to it....

just what SS do you use?
do you use Cryo on your SS?
do you double Temper ?
do you snap temper?
do you plate quench?
air quench or oil quench?
how long have you been making sellable knives?
I don't see you listing a web site or an address to sell from?
do you have customer references?
you are a steel worker I see but it's about all you placed in your CP for anyone to view..
other than your about 30 YsO


SS done right , edge retention..and rust resistance over simple H/C steel,
but that's only my opinion. but still they have their place. I can't imagine ever giving either one up.?

I've never had a blade explode on me...
I'm a Knife maker too and I Know the difference between the steels..as I said the right tool for the right job..I use both where needed.
guess I can't help you anymore than what I've said..

you seem to get defensive if someone says anything,
you say your a knife maker?? I don't know you, I know nothing of you and have not seen your work and you're asking for answers that are littering this whole forum..
I know you said can't use the search ..
Tell me what makes you a knife maker? I'm interested in what points of view
makers think of themselves.
I'll take your word for it..it's all I can do..at this point..;)



personally I know of no maker that would give up SS once he knows how to work it and use it. and
particularly if he has a good customer base, as said I make and sell both
and offering both most of my customer want the SS

I guess the advantage of the SS over the HC would be,,, it's what my customers want most of the time..it's my answer to your question, the next guy will have a different answer I'm sure, so I'd say your back to your own views on it.. :o
Click to expand...



Just curious..what is it that makes you think I'm being defensive? I even said I'll use stainless for certain things and carbon steel for certain things. When I said explode what I meant was putting the blade in a vice using a snipe and bending until it breaks... whereas differentially treated won't do that. I'm just starting to get into carbon steels and like I said am impressed with them so far. I don't heat treat my own stainless because I'm a part time maker and buying an oven right now is not a priority. I send my stainless to paul bos because the results seem great. I heat treat my own carbon steels. Particularly O-1 right now and 5160.

I didn't realize asking questions and trying to further my knowledge of this craft would be considered littering the forum. I thought that's what this forum was for. Learning and trading experience and knowledge. Why is it anytime someone brings up carbon steel and stainless it's like a union and management. Like I said. I'm not taking sides and don't appreciate the third degree. I realize you've been making knives longer than me and it's clear you want me to know that.

YOU gave ME the confused looks...All I did was clarify I wanted to learn more about the benefits of stainless. You don't have to proove to me that stainless is good. And I shouldn't have to proove anything to you. So far you're the only one I've had any friction with on this forum and I'm sure there must be some misunderstanding.

I don't have a website right now. I'm a part time maker and don't need one yet. I get maybe one or 2 orders a month and right now with the baby on the way that's enough. Mine are all one of a kind at this point. I spend a lot of time on each one so the quality, fit and finish is as good as I can possibly do. I work with each customer from the point I put the design on paper. I'm not going to go into every detail of how I make my knives. That's not what this thread was about. By the way, I'd never heard of you before I came to bladeforums either...do you like comments like that:barf: ? Nice.
Mike
 
I've seen pics of one of Mike's knives - very nice work. I also respect him for his willingness to try new things and to ask questions. He's also shown a willingness to give his input to others when they ask questions.

As for stainless, the corrosion resistance is a major reason on it's own. I really don't want a customer coming back to me complaining that his knife rusted or tarnished. It is only a select customer I would make a non-stainless blade for. Modern stainless can hold it's own against most non-stainless tool steels.

Not to start anything here, but if you look at the toughness charts for and wear resistance charts for 154Cm and D2, there isn't much to choose between them. O1 isn't priced much different than 440C. On the other hand, there isn't much else in class of CPM3V.

Good thread. It demonstrates the contrasts between the technical - and the emotional.;)

Rob!
 
Hey Rob,
Thanks for the kind words. I agree. Most of my blades have been ATS-34,440C,S60v(not fun)...and of course O-1, and 5160.
Mike
 
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