Starmate......WHEN?

I'm also waiting for Starmate - despite it has liner lock... I already desided not to buy the Military after I handled it. The knife was just great (even when it was way overpriced here in Finland and was the first generation model), but closing the knife was just scary because the thump is on the path of the blade. I believe I could learn to use it safely, but I don't think others that might handle it would. I just think it's unsafe.

Now if the Starmate would have that new rolling lock... how about it Sal? I passed the Military but only to wait it to have the rolling lock. Starmate seems so ready, that you probably can't change the lock to rolling lock, but I think that would make it perfect (that and flat grind like military)!

Harri
 
Walker - I believe that Bob "T" had intented the design as a "Tactical" folder. The drop point blade shape is a verstile shape. I think more belly would be needed to call it a tool for "hunting chores".

"Tactical" is tough to define, but in my mind, tactical relates to critical "timing" in one way or another. Quick, convenient safe deployment and reliable performace, would be how I would look at the definition. This definition would serve for a variety of "problems" needing that type of response.

Bartman - We re currently trying to re-engineer for future models to have the tip up capability.

Harri - The Starmate uses the same lock-up system that the Military uses. The lock release opening is smaller. We believe that strength and security will be every bit as effective as the Military lock-up.

We will test the Rolling Lock on the Military first and the Starmate will follow shortly, assuming all glitches are worked out.
sal
 
It is interesting, I just came to a realization regarding tip up or tip down carry. In general, I prefer tip carry...it just makes more sense to me. But, (here is the revelation) when carrying a Spyderco, I believe tip down is the way to go. Why? As Nandak2 tried to say (he made a typo), tip down carry allows the user to grab the hole in a pincer like fashion and flick the knife open - super fast. Tip down is the only way to really take advantage of the Spyderco hole in the heavier models. Sal, the Military is a first rate folder. Actually, since I am here, i would like to address the one major problem I have with the Military: The jimping on the thumb ramp ALWAYS catches on the lip of my pocket in rapid deployment. I've learned to adjust by twisting the knife a bit then withdrawing but even then, I sometimes fail to get a clean, snag free draw. Any suggestions?
 
I have a suggestion Ronny, drill and tap the opposite end of the military for tip-up carry! That way, you won't have any snag problems! I know that many people heavily weight their personal view with the belief that tip-up carry on a liner lock is suicidal to your opening hand. I don't know what those individuals have done to injure themselves in the past with that type of scenario, because I've NEVER had such a problem. I carry my knives in all conditions during all activity levels (whether mountain biking, performing military duties, snowboarding, hunting, camping, etc. etc.), and I've never even had a close call taking a tip-up liner locked knife off of my pocket. All of my knives, liner locked or not, are drilled and tapped for tip-up carry, as a matter of personal preference (but the Military is SO big and has such a huge opening hole, that it doesn't really matter!). Here's my personal method for safe tip-up carry, for a right-handed user. I regularly reach down and check the position of the knife on my pocket to make sure that it is against the seam of my pants. If a tip-up knife is TIGHTLY against the outer seam of the pants (to the extreme right side of your pocket), then the blade is resting against the seam also, obviously. If that knife is TIGHT against the seam of the pant, then the blade will stay in the handle even if there is NO blade detent, as I have a few knives (gravity knives!) that don't have a ball detent on them to hold the blade closed, and they have never stung me! When you draw the knife or check its position, put your thumb (and the web between your thumb and index finger)on the inside of the pocket to the left of the knife, and slide your hand across until you come into contact with the knife's handle. You then close your index finger down onto the pocket clip while keeping your hand on the left side of the knife while simultaneously drawing the knife from the pocket. If you do this right, you will have kept the blade away from your precious skin, and you can then position your hand and fingers correctly to open the blade and get a more comfortable grip on the knife, and that should come naturally. Needless to say, it's better seen than expressed by words, but it's pretty simple to be safe. I could see how someone could potentially cut themself on a tip-up liner locked knife by allowing the knife to slide towards the middle of the pocket, or by not keeping your phlanges and meat of your hand to the left of the knife's handle when grabbing/drawing out the knife. I've used my method for almost five years now, which is about how long I've been seriously interested in knives, without a problem. The bottom line is that tip-up or down is a matter of personal preference, but tip-up on a liner locked knife can be done safely, as I'm living proof. You've got to try it for yourself to find out if it's safe or not! (It is!).

Don't be offended anyone, none intended! Those thoughts are just my tried-and-true analytical/scientific methods that have served me well.
 
Sal, like I said I'm waiting for the Military to get the rolling lock. The new Starmate looks (to me) like a knife that I would use a bit defferently from the Military and for different things. And I actually think that with Starmate I might have the patience to take care when I close the knife (and with two hands). I do not think that I might have any problems with the liner lock failing on me (not in my use), but I just think it's not safe to operate, to close. Although it seemed like there might be a chance for accidental release with the thumb when sqeezing the Military hard. But that probably wouldn't be a problem in my use. (But it might be on my mind...)

Savman, do you really think there is no problems with a tip-up carry? If not, then why have you developed a safe system on how to carry the knife, shouldn't the lock be safe enough to carry without constantly checking if the blade is closed or resting against the seam so it cannot open?
(I'm not trying to offend you either, just wondering. I don't have any liner lock knives and therefore not really any opinnion about tip up/down. A while ago I wanted to have one, the Military, but after handling it...not anymore)

Harri
 
Harri,
No offense taken, just offering up my view and experiences with this! Playing with or using any knife presents some level of risk, that's the nature of our hobby that must be accepted (baseball card collecting is much safer)! I'm really a gun guy when it comes to length of time in the hobby (although every bit as dedicated to knives for the past five years! But, I've been active in the firearms hobby for 15 years), and believe me when I say that knives are a fraction of the risk that a firearm could provide. One silly mistake like forgetting to check the chamber before pulling the trigger and ...well, it can be fatal. But, I suppose one could be running up the stairs, trip, and fall onto the blade of your Cold Steel Magnum Tanto, too. That would be fatal, albeit not as quick as the firearm mistake! I do feel that any tip-up carried knife, liner lock or not, could be potentially harmful to the meat of your hand, if you don't make a conscious effort to check its location on your pocket. You have to develop a method to help avoid the risk, like I have. I just feel that tip-up carry is SO natural when getting the knife into use quickly, that I decided to carry my knives that way and developed a method for doing so safely. A five-year safety record proves that it can be done! I feel that tip-up carry is so instinctive to me, that it outweighs the risk of carrying knives that way. That's something for each individual to decide. I admit that there could be a risk there, especially when the activity level increases (that's when the knife may move on the pocket most). But, if you take the time and make the effort to check the knife's position, you will be OK. And no, you don't have to check it all the time if you're not doing any running, jumping, or crawling around! If your just lounging in the office or just walking around during your daily activities, the knife should stay put! If it has the tendency to slide, take off the clip and re-bend it to grab the pocket tighter. Don't over do it, but bend the clip so that it firmly grabs your pocket, and the knife should stay put. You can still put the knife into quick use with a tight pocket clip. If it doesn't feel right to you, don't do it! Do what works best for you, but keep in mind that tip-up liner locks can be carried safely if you're conscientious about how you do it.

Chad
 
Ronald - I agree with Chad that a linerlock is safe for tip up carry. Especially
Spyderco's.

However, on the tip down Military, my method of retrieval is; first thumb goes to top of hump/hole in position to drop thumb tip into hole. The thumb is actually stabilizing the blade (in relation to the other fingers) and preventing the serration on the back of the thumbrest from touching the lip on the pocket. At the same time the tip of my index finger is hooking the bottom of the clip and starting to pull the knife out of the pocket. The left side of the first knuckle (closest to nail) is placed against the handle just about where the clip screw closest to the spine is located. The knife is removed from the pocket with these three fingers. Just as the knife hole clears the pocket, I pinch the hole with the thumb and index finger. As the klnife c;ears the pocket, I throw the handle backwards. momemtum opens the knife. The three remaining fingers quickly wrap around the handle with the thumb and index finger still pinching the hole. The knife can be used with this hold for an emergency cut without changing position. Easier to show than to explain.
sal
 
Dunno how this thread turned into a tip up/tip down issue, but here's my 5 stitch take on it. I USED to carry an AFCK a couple years ago, tip down, notoriously weak ball detent. Like all normal right handed people, it was carried to the extreme right side of my front right pocket. For whatever reason, I had cause to sprint across a parking lot one day and the blade jiggled loose and opened a bit. Picture it....it opened, tip down out of the handle toward the left side of my front right pocket. With the leg motion of running, when my right thigh came up, in went the tip of the blade. 5 stitches later I swore off tip down liner locks. I have carried a tip-up liner lock since. The other fellow made a good point. Carrying it against the outer side of your pocket keeps the blade in the handle regardless of the ball detent strength. This is the only way to carry a clipped knife if you want to still be able to get your hand in and out of your pocket. Only makes sense. By the way, as to the original question......how about narrowing down the time frame on the Starmate Sal...? We are getting anxious here in case you didn't notice ;-).... Jeff
 
I tried carrying a Benchmade 800 in my right front pocket, but since I keep my wallet and car keys there I found that reaching past a tip-down liner lock and then pulling up is not a good thing to do. It was my car keys that caught on the point, not my fingers. So I carry my sport-utility folder of the week in my right rear pocket, spine against the right pocket corner if it's a liner lock.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
I think tip-up carry is reasonably safe on any well-made folder. Any risk involves two factors: likelihood and magnitude. Not only is a blade release unlikely, but the consequences really aren't that severe, especially (as mentioned above) when compared with the normal risks involved in firearms handling (even less likely, but far more severe). I know folks who carry automatic knives with pocket clips, and that is far worse that a good linerlock; they get bitten every now and then, but it's not such a big deal.

That said, I only prefer tip-up carry on smaller folders (under 3 1/2" blade). This is because to get full advantage, my thumb must reach the hole or stud as it slides into my pocket to draw the knife. If it does, I can draw the knife in the same grip that I use to open it; if not, I will have to scoot my hand up to get my grip, and this is at least as slow and awkward as spinning the handle around from the tip-down position. I do have stubby thumbs, though, and others could perhaps handle larger knives in a tip-up carry.

I'm glad that Mr. Glesser mentioned the biggest advantage to a tip-down configuration; if it's a blade-hole, this allows fast access to the drop, and if you preclude shifting your grip (the method he describes) you can have the knife in action well faster than any other setup (well, maybe not a Commander).

I was working on a few designs that had a very forward-set choil, about directly below the blade-hole. This would allow you to drop the knife and then wrap your fingers right around it in a forward grip position without having to "scoot" back on the knife as you do with most blade-holes. If you had a chance, you could also switch to a grip farther back on the handle and get a bit more reach. The downside to this setup is a very low edge length to overall length ratio. Do folks think this would work, though?

------------------

-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Regarding tip-up vs. tip down and pocket positioning:


I am right handed, and I always carry my tip-down folders at the front LEFT pocket.
So:
a) they cannot open since the blade is up against the seam of the pocket
b) I can pull them with my right hand like pulling a handgun from a cross-draw holster, and being tip-down the knife is ideally positioned in my hand for one-handed opening
c) the knife doesn't interfere with my car keys in my front right pocket
d) in an emergency, the knife is close to my weak hand (although admittedly upside-down for convenient opening, but of all things I'd rather compromise this).


This might not work for everybody, but please take a moment to try it.


Costas

P.S. Obviously, my vote goes to tip-down knives

 
We really are straying off-topic, aren't we? Hehe. Oh well, I am interested in getting my Starmate, and by the looks of it, I might have to buy a few for myself! Now, back to the off-topic...For the tip-down fans, James' right back pocket method and Costas' left front pocket method both sound good. I'd have to agree with James that a good ball detent is necessary on a liner-locked knife for safety needs. Like Sal stated, all of the Spyderco liner-locked knives have good ball-detents in them, as all of mine are very, very good. Guinness' five-stitch take (that kills me!) is one of the better reasons not to carry a weak ball-detent liner-locked knife (my AFCK's are the same way) in the right front pocket tip-down, especially with a greater activity level like running! Ouch!
 
Back to the subject. Starmates are shipping daily and have been for seveal weeks. We cannot fill te tube in a few weeks though. But they are currentlly available. Y
ou will need to find a dealer that already had them on order.
sal
 
Yup. The first Starmates are shipping. Nice knife.
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spyderco-terzuola-starmate.jpg



------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
Would you call the Starmate a "full-sized" folder in the same class as the Police Model? I know the blade is nominally shorter, but written dimensions never tell the whole story. If you compare it to a Police, AFCK, and Civilian, do you feel it is in a distinctly smaller class or in a similar class but just a "straight" design? Geez I wish there were a good store near me...

-Corduroy
 
Hey Sal,WOW!
I could not tell from the other pics just how nice this knife is. The Bladeforum Native, and now this, Spyderco is getting all my money. You know, without proper practice, my golf game is going to suffer, but I can live with that.
Thanks,
Nick
 
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