Starret O-1 or not?

A

alexmin

Joined
Nov 16, 2005
Messages
513
Guys,

does anyone know if Starret O-1 is considerably better than other manufacturers and worth extra money?

Thanks
 
Alex,
From reading the forums take a look at the chem analysis. Some O-1 has tungsten and some does not. The tungsten helps with the wear resistance. Most seem to like Starret O-1 and the cost difference per blade is usually less than $5-10.

Chuck
 
I use Starrett when possible, due to the fact that it does contain some tungsten as Chuck pointed out. At least according to the package. :D I trust it and would pay the price difference. -Matt-
 
I've never seen any O-1 that doesn't have any tungsten. Vanadium seems to be the main optional element.
 
I don't believe Starrett actually makes any steel. They just buy it on the world market and resell it. It's also my understanding that there's no way to know where the actual lot of steel was made. Maybe Europe, maybe Korea, who knows? I have also read that O1 isn't even smelted in the USA at all anymore.

The exact alloy content of any steel is always given within certain gudelines. The exact amount of each component will vary within these guidelines from lot to lot. If your applicatin is very critical, you will need to request an analysis verification for the lot of steel you are buying, regardless of the seller. Obviously, for making sporting knives this would be a little silly.

So in short, there is no difference between "Starrett O1" and any other O1 on the market, other than the usual, slight variations that must lie within the specified alloy's range.

There are NO "optional elements" in steel alloys! All O1 also contains 0.05-0.15% Vanadium. ALL O1 contains between 0.50-0.70% tungsten. If it doesn't, it's NOT O1. (German material number 1.2510)

O2 toolsteel (German material number 1.2842) is very similiar to O1 and the two alloys are often sold as interchangable, which for most applications they are. O2 does not contain tungsten. O2 is more common in Europe than in the USA and also makes an excellent knife.

Basically, buy whichever O1 is a better deal and offered in the sizes and finish you require. The steel you buy from one supplier may very well be from the same mill as that sold by another supplier. Steel is a very global product.
 
As far as I know,all O-1 steels are pretty much the same. The thing that affects cost is preparation. Surface grinding tolerances, annealing,etc. Those are "extras" that raise the cost.
 
My local Crucible rep told me that some forms of O1 are still made here in the states. If you order from them, you can have them check the lot and find out where it was made.

As to the original question, Starrett has vanadium, some others do not.
As an aside, I compared hardness between Starrett O1 and Crucible O1. Given the same heat treatment, the Crucible O1 was somewhat harder, and required higher tempering temps.
 
When I made lots of slip joints, years ago, K&G Finishing Supplies was the cheapest for percision ground 01 and it was good stuff.
 
Phillip Patton said:
As to the original question, Starrett has vanadium, some others do not.
Click to expand...

ALL O1 has vanadium in it. See my post above. If it lacks vanadium, it's not O1 because it does not meet the alloy requiremnts for that grade of steel. Anybody selling a steel without vanadium as O1 is sellig the wrong goods.

Pick up a copy of the Key to Steel and you can read the alloy requirements for yourself. The book costs quite a few hundres $ but it's worth it.

Forgot to mention: The quality of the steel is determined in part by what if any inpurities are in it in addition to good stuff. Quality steel will have very little impurities.

Anything you buy from Crucible will be a good product. Same for Timkin. Those companies actually produce steel. Another good source for O1 is Uddeholm in Sweden. They sell O1 under their name of ARNE. It is excellent quality as are all Uddeholm steels I have ever used.

I'm not implying there is anything wrong with the O1 Starrett sells.

Just remember: the alloy composition for the different steel grades is not a suggestion; it's a requirement with fixed tolerances for the alloy. Some people put raisens in their apple pie but it still apple pie. That's not true for steel.
 
Its been a long time since I bought any starret O1. If I remember right though, the biggest noticeable difference with it was the finish. It was ground to a much higher finish than some of the other precision ground stuff. Made it a lot nicer to work with as you didn't have to remove as much material from the flats t get a good finish on your blade.

Pretty much all the O1 I buy now is from Timken, and its very good also. The price is much better and I can't make any complaints about the quality of the grinding or anything else.
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
ALL O1 has vanadium in it. See my post above. If it lacks vanadium, it's not O1 because it does not meet the alloy requiremnts for that grade of steel. Anybody selling a steel without vanadium as O1 is sellig the wrong goods.

Pick up a copy of the Key to Steel and you can read the alloy requirements for yourself. The book costs quite a few hundres $ but it's worth it.
Click to expand...


I respectfully disagree. I have a number of metallurgical books, all published by the ASM, and they ALL list vanadium as optional. I also have in front of me the data sheets from Timken and Crucible, and they do not list vanadium in the composition.
ALL O1 has tungsten, but all don't have vanadium.
 
Now the question, which would you prefere in a steel for a knife blade, tugnsten or vanadium or both?

Chuck
 
Vanadium is more effective at reducing grain size, and they both make carbides.
Neither is particularly significant as far as hardenability goes.
O1 is a good knife steel, whether it has vanadium or not. :)
 
Well since i screwed up on the initial post i drug out a bunch of my steel books to take a look at the specs. Crucible, Pacific, Machineries handbook numbers 11 and 25 all list O-1 with Tungten and no vanadium. In the machineries handbook #11 it mentions an oil hardening steel with low deformation with both. As far as best for knife blades it depends upon what you are looking for. I personally like the Vanadium. I was doing some research a few weeks ago and pulled out my crucible book and found some interesting information. As Phillip pointed out both W and V make carbides combining with the excess carbon to form "harder than steel" particles improving wear resistence. V also does reduce grain size and in lower percentages increases depth of hardening. The most interesting thing I found was the relative hardness. I thought W was the hardest substance added to steel. I was mistaken. W carbides have an RC of 72/77. V carbides on the other hand have an RC of 82/84. In conversations with Steve Rollert, he has done micro analysis of V steel and it produces microserrations of hard V carbides that increase wear resistance significantly.

O-1 is a great steel. It has been used for years with great success. As far as the orig question is concerned I agree that O-1 is pretty much the same. If you are forging then do not buy the precision ground material. In fact I buy round bar stock. Price per pound is significantly lower. On the other hand if you are doing stock removal then the PG material may be the right stuff. The main thing for anyone is get used to the steel they are using. take the time to get the HT down for max perfromance.

Chuck
 
It seems to me that tungsten is best in carbon steels for forming small, hard carbides (harder than iron carbides), though this is most apparent in O7 and F2. Vanadium is good in small amounts for grain refinement, but it forms larger carbides in larger amounts.
 
Well Phillip, I guess I don't know what to say to that one! :-) I've never heard of "optional ingredients" in steel alloy defintions... German standards ain't got no options: you is or you ain't.

Here's a link to the Key to Steel refernce book. It's pretty much the standard as far as I know: http://www.stahlschluessel.de/en/home.html

Oh, here's a link to Uddeholm to download the PDF spec sheet in english for their ARNE 1.2510 O1 grade. It contains both tungsten (wolfram) and vanadium. http://www.buau.com.au/english/p_2879.htm

I guess you guys in the USA will have to get an an assay sheet on your goods... wouldn't want to buy any O1 where carbon was an "option." !!!! :D :eek: :)
 
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