Starret O-1 or not?

Kevin Wilkins said:
Well Phillip, I guess I don't know what to say to that one! :-) I've never heard of "optional ingredients" in steel alloy defintions... German standards ain't got no options: you is or you ain't.

Here's a link to the Key to Steel refernce book. It's pretty much the standard as far as I know: http://www.stahlschluessel.de/en/home.html

Oh, here's a link to Uddeholm to download the PDF spec sheet in english for their ARNE 1.2510 O1 grade. It contains both tungsten (wolfram) and vanadium. http://www.buau.com.au/english/p_2879.htm

I guess you guys in the USA will have to get an an assay sheet on your goods... wouldn't want to buy any O1 where carbon was an "option." !!!! :D :eek: :)
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Kevin, I think you're misunderstanding the whole vanadium thing. It is not an optional element, and it is not a required element. Some/many manufacturers add vanadium to O1 for grain refinement, not because it is required by the parameters of O1.
 
Well, what are the exact requirements for selling a steel as O1 in the USA?

The German standards for the 1.2510 alloy (which is the US O1) require vanadium as one of the elements contained in that alloy. I haven't found anything listing it as an option.

I've never heard of any other steel designation where an important (and very expensive) element like vanadium is somehow an "option" or an added bonus, or whatever you want to call it that some manufactueres decide to throw in to the mix. If manfactueres can add – or subtract – elements from a steel alloy as they chose then what's the pont of having standardized alloy classifications?

Maybe I am misunderstanding it, but I've always thought the purpose of having standards is to guarantee a certain quality and product regardless of the manufacturer.

When I buy 1.2510 or 1.2379 (D2) I expect the steel to contain the alloy elements within the industry standard range. If it doesn't I expect the steel to carry another classification. So far I've never had a problem.

Maybe O1 without vanadium should be sold as "O1 Lite, the less vanadium O1" or something like that? Like fat-free French fries? I have enough worries without having to start asking my steel suppliers to qualify exactly how they've decided to alloy their standard products.

I guess you guys can always just buy Uddeholm ARNE. I've been very happy with it. One thing the Swedes know about – besides pretty girls and meatballs :-) – is making good steel.

Otherwise looks like you'll be stuck asking whoever is selling the steel to tell you what's in the stuff.
 
It is not outside of the paramaters of O1 not to have vanadium, and it is not outside of the parameters of O1 to have vanadium. You have to remember that the normal series tool steels (A, D, S series etc.) have fairly large ranges because they're not proprietary steel grades, they're just industry standards, you can fit quite a large range and still call your steel D2, for example.
 
I finally looked at this thread. Tool steels do have optional elements and for O-1 it's vanadium ! Looking at my "Tool Steel" by Roberts 1961 ,I see that O-2 steel has Cr,V and Mo as optional !! You might also search comments by Kevin Cashen about L-6 ,where two makers have significantly different composition ,forging and HT characteristics !! Some of this of course goes back to the origins of steel making when each company made it's own steels .Gradually there have been more and more standards....BTW for those who use conversion tables to find equivalent steels - sometimes they are not equivalent but 'closest match' !!
 
mete said:
I finally looked at this thread. Tool steels do have optional elements and for O-1 it's vanadium ! Looking at my "Tool Steel" by Roberts 1961 ,I see that O-2 steel has Cr,V and Mo as optional !! You might also search comments by Kevin Cashen about L-6 ,where two makers have significantly different composition ,forging and HT characteristics !! Some of this of course goes back to the origins of steel making when each company made it's own steels .Gradually there have been more and more standards....BTW for those who use conversion tables to find equivalent steels - sometimes they are not equivalent but 'closest match' !!
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Thanks for the information, mete.
 
The German Standards I'm used to are the DIN (German Industry Norm). As far as I know, there are no set of options for important alloy elements like vanadium, moly and Chrome. These are what make the alloy what it is.

The German standards have changed since the 1960s, maybe the US ones haven't? I don't know. It might pay to consult a more recent reference book than one from 1961.

The Key to Steel is updated and reissued every year (or is it every 2 years?), in any case it's updated constantly and is in three languages with listing for all countries. The Key to Steel book lists each alloy element and the range in % of that element that the steel should contain.

But the whole thing is really you guy's problem with your suppliers. I don't have to ask my suppliers what they put in their standard alloys. I already know because of the DIN designation number. Sounds like it would be important for you to first ask each supplier for an alloy listing then decide what to buy from whom.

Maybe the "O1" being sold in the USA that contains vanadium is made to meet the DIN standard for 1.2510? Maybe the O1 without isn't? Sounds like a crap shoot I don't envy you guys in any case.

So I guess the best answer I give to the original question would be, if I had the choice between an O1 flavor with vanadium or one without, I'd take the one with. And as vanadium is a very expensive element, that might make it slighty more expensive than an O1 lite without vanadium.
 
That's your problem , you have to deal with 'deutsche ordnung' while we go in all directions !!
 
well to the topic
my first so called saleable knife I made was of starret O1 steel 33 years ago..which I still have BTW,,, :)
( I assume it was all made here in the states back then)
anyway,,you can't go wrong with it, easy to use and easy to sharpen, won't warp to bad if you grind Unevenly, you can harden it with O/A very easily and Temper/draw it down in a toaster oven. a very good steel for a new maker..
unless you used it over and above, most any of it will do you well..if you want more edge holding ability , try 154CM and Cryo it:)
either way you go with what ever O1, if you don't heat treat it right it won't matter what it has in it..
 
Here is the deal: Starret generally specs out tighter control of composition in the steel they sell, compared to a generic "made in USA" steel.

In their A2, for example, theu maintain a better control of the Carbon content than the generic steel. Look in a catalog like MSC and you will see the difference.

I used a lot of their A2, and always gladly paid the slight extra price for the tighter control.

Whether you'd see the difference in 01 I can't say, but, considering how much time and effort you're putting into the knife, isn't it worth it?
 
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