Statement from CS of VG-1

B

buckg

Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
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If this is a duplicate thread, please forgive me. I received a Cold Steel catalog today and, while I expect a lot of hype from them, this statement really set off my BS detector:

When considering a new material for a performance upgrade for the Cold Steel Tanto, we tested seven different grades of steel including Shiro 2, V-SP-2, 10A, 440C, VG-10, ATS 34, and VG-1. Physical testing for sharpness, edge retention, point strength, shock, and ultimate blade strength showed that while many of the steels had increased performance in one or two testing categories, only one, VG-1, showed the greatest performance increases in the most critical categories. With an outstanding ability to retain an edge and proven strength in point and blade tests, VG-1 will provide Cold Steel customers with superior performance previously unavailable in a stainless steel blade.​

That doesn't seem to be just stretching the truth. It seems like an outright lie. Can anybody see any truth to this statement at all?
 
"...the greatest performance increases in the most critical categories..."

Is one of those "critical categories" Cold Steel's income statement?;)
 
I was under the impression that VG-1 was significantly inferior to VG-10.... :confused:

Would they actually dare to lie like that?
 
Kazeryu said:
I was under the impression that VG-1 was significantly inferior to VG-10.... :confused:

Would they actually dare to lie like that?
Click to expand...

Well, on the home page of the company website it says

Cold Steel
World's Strongest, Sharpest Knives

so...
 
Ok. Where are the Cold Steel fans? How about some people with metalurgy knowledge? We've got five categories: sharpness, edge retention, point strength, shock, and ultimate blade strength. In which of these categories, if any, is VG-1 superior to VG-10?
 
rifon2 said:
Is one of those "critical categories" Cold Steel's income statement?;)
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Right on. It's not really a lie because their bottom line probably well outweighed any criteria regarding the steels performance. From what I gather and see about VG-1, it's not a bad blade steel. To say it's better than VG-10 or ATS-34 can only mean 'better' in the sense of cost savings in buying and manufacturing it. Expect something similar to AUS8A which seems to be fairly close in composition. Personally, I like AUS8A because it takes a polished edge very well, gets very sharp, and is easy to sharpen. Edge retention isn't so great but it takes to stropping very well so it's easy to maintain between sharpening. VG10 is better in all regards and is currently my favorite blade steel. Considering that the prices have seemed to come down a few bucks on CS's old AUS8 knives that are going to be VG-1, it shouldn't be a bad thing.
 
buckg said:
Ok. Where are the Cold Steel fans? How about some people with metalurgy knowledge? We've got five categories: sharpness, edge retention, point strength, shock, and ultimate blade strength. In which of these categories, if any, is VG-1 superior to VG-10?
Click to expand...

I used to be a fan, until I joined this forum and found out that Cold Steel has a lot more in common with Camillius than just the fact that both their names start with a "C."

What's the difference between Carbon V and 1095?
Answer: Not enough to justify paying $60 for a CS SRK, when I can get the Camillius version of the traditional Kabar knife for half the price!:mad:
 
It's always funny to me when the new guys figure out that Busse knives are the best in the world and Cold Steel sucks.
Hey look at me - I know all about knives now.:jerkit:
 
So are you suggesting that the average guy here buy only Busse? Or is it OK for us to pick up a good folder now and then for less than a month's rent? :D

Laugh about Cold Steel and its fans if you like. There are reasons so many different knives from so many different companies are popular. Of course, if you need a bandwagon to ride because you can't make it on down the road on your own, go ahead and sneer.

Not only aren't you telling us anything we haven't heard -- and discounted -- before, but you aren't learning anything, either.

---

By the way, just in case I haven't mentioned it lately, the term "sucks" is unnecessarily vulgar.
 
Here some info about VG-1. It seems odd that with all the testing by many manufacturers we are still looking for a good knife steel (I like 440-C at Rockwell 60).

VG1
Features
Blade is one of the oldest tools that early people used in ancient time, and it has been playing an important role in daily living since then. But when you cut food and you use blade on human's body, for instance, shaving or hair-cutting, rust on the blade is annoying and you can't savor delicious cuisine. This is why stainless steel blade was created meeting users' need, but at first stainless steel blades had bad reputation for being blunt. It is because the early stainless steel was not suitable for cutting blade.
Our V Gold1 is an ideal cutting steel and its material provides the base of our stainless cutting steel series.

From raw material with fewer impurities, the ingot is made by latest refining technology. It has fine and ductile structure and is easy to forge by fire. Heat treatment is also easy to apply to and the product is corrosive resistant.
Blades made of VG1 meet these four major requirements for a good blade;

hard
ductile
abrasion-resistant
corrosive-resistant
VG1 contains 1.0% of C and hard primary carbide and secondary carbide co-exist in the substrate, which enhances its abrasion resistance. 14% of Cr also contributes to improvement in corrosive-resistance and strength. Mo together with Cr forms hard double carbide helping improve in abrasion resistance and corrosion resistance.
VG10 is utilized in many fields such as for hairdresser's scissors, kitchen knives, blade for food-processing machineries.
Component Standard
C Cr W Mo V Ni Co
VG1 0.95-1.05 13.0-15.0 - 0.2-0.4 - 0.25 or lower -

return


Copyright(C)2004 Takefu Special Steel Co.,Ltd. All Right Reserved

Here is a steel chart for all the "Steelheads".

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/downloads/steel_chart.PDF
 
buckg said:
That doesn't seem to be just stretching the truth. It seems like an outright lie. Can anybody see any truth to this statement at all?
Click to expand...

You can not tell if it is a truth or a lie, it is simply undefined hype. Cold Steel makes pretty much the exact same statement about every steel them bring out.

Physical testing for sharpness, edge retention, point strength, shock, and ultimate blade strength
​

Point strength and ultimate blade strength are essentially the same thing, Fallkniven claims their laminates are "stronger" than pure VG-10, however the data actually shows them taking a permanent set earlier. So what exactly is Cold Steel measuring, the onset of plastic deformation, the region of plastic deformation or the ultimate point of failure?

Sharpness is also undefined, sharpness for what media cut in what manner? Two blades tested side by side slicing hemp rope and carving wood could have reversed sharpness scores because those two tasks require different properties for maximim performance. So which blade is sharper, the one which does best on wood or hemp or the average? Which tasks did you pick?

Edge retention is completely meaningless because it depends on strength, toughness, wear resistance, ductility and corrosion resistance, and the amount that it depends on these changes depending on what is being cut and how. M2 at 66 HRC has excellent edge retention cutting cardboard, L6 has excellent edge retention chopping wood, both have lower edge retention than AISI 420HC for salt water filleting but outperform it many times over in edge retention in the first tasks.

Even shock is fairly vague, different steels are notch sensitive to various degrees, so you can see changes in which one is superior in charpy c/v notch or torsional and then you have parallel/pendicular grain alignment.

Not to mention that all steels have different combinations of properties depending on how they are hardened, so what was the heat treatment for all of the steels? If you check the manufacturer webpages for those steels :

http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_original_list.htm

VG-10 looks to be promoted as a superior steel for a knife used for fine cutting. One of the advantages to using VG1 is simply it is different, if Cold Steel used VG-10 one could ask why not just buy Fallkniven or Spyderco. But with a different material you can always claim to be superior and if you are really vague no one can actually say you are lying.

-Cliff
 
Thanks DDG, now I finely know who makes it and what's in it . The english translation is amusing. The" VG10 is utilized.." should be VG1. For VG10 they say the cobalt is added to prevent the carbides from dropping out !!! In any case from the composition VG10 should be a bit better ,finer grain from the V, more Mo and the Co. I do have Shun kitchen knives that I am very happy with and recently got a Fallkniven S-1 so I know that VG10 is a fine knife steel .I have no idea how good the VG1 is.
 
I suspect there is some truth to this statement:

only one, VG-1, showed the greatest performance increases in the most critical categories.
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And I'll finish the sentence for him.

only one, VG-1, showed the greatest performance increases in the most critical categories: priced per heat lot it was cheaper for more profit. :D :D

STR
 
buckg said:
Physical testing for sharpness, edge retention, point strength, shock, and ultimate blade strength showed that while many of the steels had increased performance in one or two testing categories, only one, VG-1, showed the greatest performance increases in the most critical categories.
Click to expand...

Just to give Cold Steel the benefit of the doubt:

Note that thay've really only got one point up there, edge retention, that I'm comfortable saying VG-1 is CERTAINLY outclassed in - and as people have pointed out, depending on what the target was, even that wight not be so clear cut. "Sharpness" is an oddball that certainly is not always proportionate to steel price, and the other three categories are all things that can actually favor a simpler steel.

I'm not saying I'm sure Cold Steel isn't blowing smoke up my ass, :) but they may actually not be lying about their evaluation.
 
I'd like to see a cost analysis for heat treat and how much it affects overall cost. Or, more simply, hear from one of the makers/representatives on the issue.

D2 isn't that pricey, but the double/triple quenches, cryo, etc. add up. But how many makers do these treatments to get the performance potentially offered.

Many people still like 440C, 1095, etc. Old tech steels that can be considered "low grade.". VG1 should fit in there (potentially).
 
orthogonal1 said:
Many people still like 440C, 1095, etc. Old tech steels that can be considered "low grade.". VG1 should fit in there (potentially).
Click to expand...

I like 440C. Nothing wrong with it. I've got 440C knives that are 20 years old and they're still going strong. Sure, you have to sharpen them more often than the new "wonder steels", but that doesn't make me not like my 440C knives. I haven't owned AUS8A knives for that many years, but I've been happy with them too. I'm tempted to say I like my AUS8A blades more than my 440C blades, but the difference is slight. VG-1 should be about the same from what those knowledgable in steels say, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy a VG-1 blade.
 
averageguy said:
It's always funny to me when the new guys figure out that Busse knives are the best in the world and Cold Steel sucks.
Hey look at me - I know all about knives now.:jerkit:
Click to expand...

"Hey look at me, my ego is so fragile and my life is so pathetic, I have to flame random strangers over an internet forum just to feel better about my self!":foot:

LOL ........ BTW, Busse knives are good; they're REAL good! But, I'd rather not put my car up for sale; just to buy one. ;)
 
"I used to be a fan, until I joined this forum"

Monocrom you make my point for me - you understand that don't you?

Yes, some CS models are made by Camillus - that is a positive thing not a negative. Some others are made by cutlers in Japan who like Camillus have an extensive history of manufacturing knives.
The SRK is widely accepted as being a superior knife to the traditional Ka-bar. By the way Camillus also makes one of these and has since WWII.
The large scale use and acceptance of knives like the SRK. Master Hunter and Trailmaster among seasoned outdoorsman and military personel over the last two decades should offer you some reassurance about the quality you are getting.

Busse knives are well made, aesthetically pleasing, tough, and hold a fair resale value but the ones I've owned have not been optimized as cutting tools.

You will feel better about yourself and your posts as you increase your knowledge of knives. I started out just asking questions and making observations about knives I owned. I'm sure in time we will all look forward to your posts and the contributions you make here.;)
 
I don't think Cold Steel sells "the world's best knives" like they claim they do, but they do offer some of the biggest folders out there that have reasonable prices and quality. Until I can get a durable $50 folder with a 5" blade from Spyderco, Benchmade, etc., I'll keep buying Cold Steel. If blades smaller than 4" were all that great, the knife block in my kitchen wouldn't have nine knives over 4" and one knife under 4".
 
Cold Steel also had to take into account that their blades would sport its own serration pattern. Perhaps other steels would be too difficult to sharpen or might have more of a tendency to lose teeth.

I, too, like larger knives and CS makes the kind I'm more comfortable with (such as the Voyager and Vaquero). I'm also very fond of their Pro-Lite tanto (440A) with serrations. Very tough knife that's suitable for prying; it strips wiring with its plain edge and eats cardboard and nylon. Even the Voyagers and Vaqueros have enough of a plain edge for stripping wire.

Only time will tell on VG-1's quality as a steel. For a plain edge, however, I think clearly that better knife steels would have been preferable.
 
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