Stealing Knife Designs?

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nadavis

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Hello all. I joined this forum to ask this question. "In the world of knife making/design what is considered stealing?"

I have a book that is rapidly filling with my own knife designs and as time goes on I have to turn to existing designs to get the juices flowing. After a while it got me thinking...if for example I designed a knife that looked exactly like a Strider SMF with same materials and half the cost (remember...just an example) would it be considered a illegal to steal his design or is it just frowned upon?

That being said I have seen and heard of many types of knife designs that have been recreated and reproduced by many different knife makers. Me being a gun guy by trade I compare this to the 1911. Its been around for 100 years now and been copied by many companies now. I don't see Colt going around looking to sue over it.

If anyone could clarify this for me I would appreciate it.
 
Unless a design is trademarked, copyrighted, or patented- It can be copied.
 
I read most of the SOG thread and while I understand it is not illegal (unless copyrighted ect...) will a new and upcoming company lose respect for copying a Strider SMF (for example again) and giving Strider credit?

I love Ken Onion's designs and a lot of my designs are my own and many are also very much inspired by his designs. Would giving him credit for his designs when describing the knife be considered socially acceptable in the knife community or will everyone still write off that knife maker because he "ripped" off that design?
 
My music is influenced by classic country, Elvis, Neil Diamond and Garth Brooks and Raffi. The blend sounds rather like a cat with it's tail in a wall socket. None of the above have sued me (yet).

Most artists are flattered that they have influenced your work. If that influence becomes an exact copy, you may be at least, on thin moral ground.
 
nadavis said:
Hello all. I joined this forum to ask this question. "In the world of knife making/design what is considered stealing?"

I have a book that is rapidly filling with my own knife designs and as time goes on I have to turn to existing designs to get the juices flowing. After a while it got me thinking...if for example I designed a knife that looked exactly like a Strider SMF with same materials and half the cost (remember...just an example) would it be considered a illegal to steal his design or is it just frowned upon?

That being said I have seen and heard of many types of knife designs that have been recreated and reproduced by many different knife makers. Me being a gun guy by trade I compare this to the 1911. Its been around for 100 years now and been copied by many companies now. I don't see Colt going around looking to sue over it.

If anyone could clarify this for me I would appreciate it.
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I'd wager Colt would sue if they could, though.
 
Any creation that is unique and original is protected from infringement without special application of forms. In other words, copying anyone's work and selling it is a violation BUT it's very difficult to enforce. It becomes easier to enforce when there are more formal filings and when there is a larger amount of money at stake.

The same is not true for works of art that are not for sale. You can make an "art" copy of any famous knife but you shouldn't sell it.
 
for example I designed a knife that looked exactly like a Strider SMF with same materials and half the cost (remember...just an example) would it be considered a illegal to steal his design or is it just frowned upon?
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Exactly like ? And at 1/2 the cost..sure sounds to me like you are trying to copy the design and undercut the price of the competition.

That's a copy and would be frowned upon. Using someones design without their permission is bad juju for a fellow maker.
 
This comes up quite often. I don't really have an answer, but humor me while I opine....

Decades ago, the late, great Bob Loveless came up with some designs and techniques that were (at the time) unique to the market. His method of fitting guards on full tang knives, as well as the famed drop point hunter gave makers something new to try. Over the years, untold thousands have made a "Loveless style" knife. I think most gave credit where credit was due. Looking a fantastic maker like SR Johnson for example, it would be preposterous (in my mind) to call him a design thief, yet many of his fixed blade knives could be mistaken for a loveless piece at first glance.

In my opinion, making a point to point copy of something does come across a little shady... particularly if you plan to profit from it. I have seen a few examples of that lately. Referring specifically to your question about the Strider, I think the way you worded it would give pause to most collectors.

I know you were just giving an example, but "a knife that looked exactly like a Strider SMF with same materials and half the cost" implies you would be marketing this knife as a strider alternative. Does it have to look like a Strider knife to perform like one? I would focus on coming up with your own designs (regardless of influence) to perform the same functions. A well made knife can always find a buyer.

Is it possible in 20-30 years, you will be seeing "Strider style" knives on the market sold by the next generations on knifemakers? Yes, it's possible. Mick Strider has done a great job creating his "brand" and defining what a Strider knife looks like. I've never handled one, but given the fervor of his patrons, I would wager his company puts out a good product. It’s easy to see why it would be appealing for a maker.

So what's my point? I wish I had one... At best, it is a dichotomy… At worst, hypocrisy.
We seem to have a double standard sometimes.
 
You will know if you're stealing.

It's not cool, don't do it.

Mark Redmon said:
Looking a fantastic maker like SR Johnson for example, it would be preposterous (in my mind) to call him a design thief, yet many of his fixed blade knives could be mistaken for a loveless piece at first glance.
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Well, he did work in the Loveless Shop for a # of years, they very well should look similar...
 
With this being your first posts, and no info in your profile, Most of the folks here will assume that you are a small shop in Thailand ( or somewhere else) that is testing the waters for acceptability of knock-off knives.

Here are my thoughts on it:

Knock off knives are nothing new. I can buy a cheap knockoff of most buck knives for as cheap as 1/10 the normal price.They are usually considered junk, and most of the time are. Pakistan and China pour out millions a year. Even though they are sold everywhere, they are basically illegal. The guy who wants a cheap knife will buy one, but the person who wants a Buck Knife to hunt with will pass on one of these and spend the money for a reliable knife.

Copying a style is well accepted and unless you are a factory not illegal. Copying a particular model and making 1000 of them is illegal and unethical.

Filling out your profile and telling us what your plans are is the best way to set the right foot forward.
 
I try to make all my designs unique and original. Having said that, I have learned that their are few designs that are original! :eek: Man has been building knives since man learned to make tools and most designs have been done! :)

I have designed knives that I thought were original only to find a similar knife in pictures somewhere, on a forum in a museum. If it's not patented or copyrighted it is fair game to make a knife like it! No matter how distasteful I find the thought of someone copying a knife I have worked so hard on.

How is that old saying, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"!
 
My personal spin...

Most makers are "inspired" by the designs of others. Very few really create bold new designs. They'll tell you it's because some designs stand the test of time. Others will talk about how some designs are "just right" for a particular function. Both explanations are correct. And to a certain degree, both are rationalizations.

I've seen quite a few really inspired designs. I've seen far more knives that are essentially the same as others of their type with the only visible difference being the makers mark or the color of the handle. The only VISIBLE difference. Underneath the skin there may well be differences that are not visible. Different matierals, different processing techniques, differing levels of attention to details, and so on.

But there's a line that most makers won't cross. Making "exact copies" of anything is blatant intellectual property theft.

Anyone who says they can make an exact copy for half the price is unlikely to be paying attention to the details. Details cost time and money. Details are what separates the good from the mediocre. Attention to details is what makes or breaks a reputation.

For my own part, I have no interest in making something that is exactly the same as anyone else is making. The world has enough knock-offs. What it needs (and has always needed) is people who know enough and care enough to break new ground. It needs people that can put two or more ideas together and make a cohesive NEW idea from them. Maybe the idea works, not every time, but maybe sometimes a really new concept is developed.

Think about the path you are embarking on. Are your own designs really so weak that you'll resort to stealing someone else's? Is that the legacy you want to leave?

- Greg
 
I thought were original only to find a similar knife
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similar is one thing , exact is another.
As you stated in your opening post:
if for example I designed a knife that looked exactly like a Strider SMF
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as for this gem....
How is that old saying, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"!
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Seems more like a phrase that is used by those doing the copying , than by those being copied. If you want to set yourself a part , do your own thing rather than someone else s.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I have a much better understanding of this now.

With this being your first posts, and no info in your profile, Most of the folks here will assume that you are a small shop in Thailand ( or somewhere else) that is testing the waters for acceptability of knock-off knives.
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I see no reason for me do tell you anything about myself seeing as the questions wasn't a personal one. The question was finding out what was socially accepted in the knife community which is why I asked a forum. This is not a question of making money by copying other designs otherwise I would have done it...make sense?

I merely wanted to be sure that people who know a good product (like mine will be) when they see it won't pass it up because they thought I was ripping off other designs.

Again, I really appreciate the insight guys.
 
nadavis said:
I see no reason for me do tell you anything about myself seeing as the questions wasn't a personal one. The question was finding out what was socially accepted in the knife community which is why I asked a forum. This is not a question of making money by copying other designs otherwise I would have done it...make sense?

I merely wanted to be sure that people who know a good product (like mine will be) when they see it won't pass it up because they thought I was ripping off other designs.

Again, I really appreciate the insight guys.
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You have a lot to learn about being accepted by your peers. Being a forum , a community if you will , people tend to like to get to know each other outside of the "text" based world.

nadavis said:
I merely wanted to be sure that people who know a good product (like mine will be) when they see it won't pass it up because they thought I was ripping off other designs.
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Some might accept it , some might not. Live by the sword , die by the sword kind of thing.
If your designs are solid and functional , you will attract buyers , if you are merely copying with the intent to sell cheaper ( which is what my gut tells me so far ) , then you might get buyers , but you are sure to catch criticism as well.
 
nadavis said:
Thanks for the replies guys. I have a much better understanding of this now.



I see no reason for me do tell you anything about myself seeing as the questions wasn't a personal one. .
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with an attitude like that, when dealing with a moderators request to fill out your profile, your time at this forum will be short lived
 
SShepherd said:
with an attitude like that, when dealing with a moderators request to fill out your profile, your time at this forum will be short lived
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Exactly. I think too many think that they have a free pass in many forums and don't respect the owner, moderators and the regulars.
 
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