Steel Crystalization?

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Mar 27, 2017
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I am sure some of you will have a very basic answer to this but I have noticed that when a high carbon steel is heated to a yellow and air cooled or even cooled overnight it becomes extremely brittle and has a huge crystal structure. I have explained this to a couple knife makers in my area and they simply say it shouldn't do that.
I am looking for a scientific explanation to my observations, any comments?
 
I am sure some of you will have a very basic answer to this but I have noticed that when a high carbon steel is heated to a yellow and air cooled or even cooled overnight it becomes extremely brittle and has a huge crystal structure. I have explained this to a couple knife makers in my area and they simply say it shouldn't do that.
I am looking for a scientific explanation to my observations, any comments?
Yellow is way hotter than needed to harden. It grow the grains larger I believe. All high carbon steel is brittle after heat treat before it is tempered.
 
When you take a "high carbon steel" (let's use O1 as an example here), to a "yellow" heat past critical temp (colors are so subjective....but in reality even that is irrelevant here)...and allow it to air cool, your resulting structure is simply pearlite. It is neither hard nor brittle. But if you were take said high carbon steel to a "yellow heat" and cool it SLOWER than still air (I am talking about the vermiculite, wood ash, or similar overnight cooling treatments), and then AFTER you try to harden that structure with your austenitizing heat and quench, then yes, the resulting martensite matrix will have carbides (mostly cementite in the lower alloy carbon steels like O1 etc) that are in the grain boundaries, which does create a more "brittle" structure than if the initial cooling process was allowed in still air. That is why metallurgists suggest to always allow a still air cool following normalizing/cycling, and not a wood ash/vermiculite treatment on hypereutectoid steels.

If your steel has a eutectiod or hypoeutectoid count (roughly .77%, 1080 and below), then the wood ash/vermiculite/slow cooling process will not cause this problem. If your steel is hypereutectoid (roughly 0.77% and above) like 1095, O1, 52100, White, Blue, etc... then it is NOT advisable to do a slow cooling process during normalizing and/or cycling.

You may notice many of the smiths practicing traditional techniques will indeed do the wood ash/overnight cooling process with very high carbon steels like the Shiro, Ao, and AoSuper steels. These methods are traditions of smiths of centuries old. I cannot comment on if this is the BEST method to prepare these steels for hardening or not. The reason I say this is because these steels, especially the Hitachi White and Blue steels are used mostly in kitchen knives, where there *may* be a benefit to the said added *strain* with that brittle structure (strictly slicing and not chopping/hard impact). When you inquire these things to contemporary and well known/established metallurgists/knifemakers/swordmakers (I stress METALLURGISTS....plural), they'll tell you that any sort of cooling that is slower than still air on hypereutectoid steels like 1095, O1, White, Blue, etc, this treatment will place carbides in grain boundaries instead of within the aus grain, and thus a more brittle microstructure once hardened/quenched/tempered will occur, and are best with still air cooling during normalizing/cycling.

My point here being, there are old vs new methods/thoughts. Some may be better than others, and I do NOT have the answers, but hope that this can help your question *and* (ha ha!) stir up a debate. I am not a metallurgist by any means, and I am constantly learning new things, and I REALLY like the idea of sharing them. Right or wrong.....I'm thrilled to be corrected in these matters, and we all can learn from it.
 
As you supply heat, the boundaries of the grain will have enough space to start moving and they will move and the grain will grow at the expense of the smaller grains.
It is the same happening to foam. As you let the foam, over time the smaller bubbles will "pop" incorporating into larger ones.
The net effect is that the total area of grain boundaries will decrease, findind its "nirvana" to less potential energy configuration. More boundaries area=more energy; less boundaries area (larger grains)= less energy = nirvana
 
You have grain growth, use lower temperatures. Simple carbon steels with small amounts of alloy are made to help resist grain growth.

Try 5160, 80crv2, W2 etc.

Hoss
 
You may notice many of the smiths practicing traditional techniques will indeed do the wood ash/overnight cooling process with very high carbon steels like the Shiro, Ao, and AoSuper steels. These methods are traditions of smiths of centuries old. I cannot comment on if this is the BEST method to prepare these steels for hardening or not. The reason I say this is because these steels, especially the Hitachi White and Blue steels are used mostly in kitchen knives, where there *may* be a benefit to the said added *strain* with that brittle structure (strictly slicing and not chopping/hard impact). When you inquire these things to contemporary and well known/established metallurgists/knifemakers/swordmakers (I stress METALLURGISTS....plural), they'll tell you that any sort of cooling that is slower than still air on hypereutectoid steels like 1095, O1, White, Blue, etc, this treatment will place carbides in grain boundaries instead of within the aus grain, and thus a more brittle microstructure once hardened/quenched/tempered will occur, and are best with still air cooling during normalizing/cycling.



I just wanted to point out that Japanese smiths, or at least Murray Carter does a sub-critical anneal when he sticks his knives in the ashes. This is why he turns off all the lights and then heats to a "dull cherry" red before going into the ash. I always enjoy reading your posts though, so keep sharing that info :)

~Paul
My YT Channel
Lsubslimed

... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
That was a reply I made right before bed and I was sleepy, and completely forgot to address the obvious grain growth issue, and was more "focused" on the anneal. You're right....Murray's anneal is not from critical, but below it.
 
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