Steel. Do You Ever Wonder?

S

Smash05

Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
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If its all in your head. I had a conversation with a knife store employee about what I was most eagerly anticipating in the next year for blades. The Condor neckers came up, and I explained that I was looking forward to picking up a few. He stopped and stared at me a moment, and stated "but they are only 1075? I went on to argue that I would love to see some more low cost offerings in 440C, and he almost had a heart attack. I really have found in the last year that the steel chase is just that, a chase. I'm no longer convinced that the next great steel is really all that great for most purposes. That's not to say that I'm not interested, but I feel like my reasons for purchase have evolved more towards design than steel. Anyone else know what I mean? Feel the same way?
 
I used to kind of do that, but the more i use cheap carbon steel knives the more i think they cut as good or better than pert-near anything. The design, construction, comfort, fit and finish trump everything in my book, having that excellent-cutting carbon steel is an added bonus!
 
If we compare quality steels, then design trumps steel everytime.

Even lower quality steel is better in a good design than a high quality steel for the wrong application.
 
I agree totally. A couple of my favorite knives are in simple carbon steel, D2 or 440C.

Design and handle materials do SOO much more for me than designer steel.
 
Smash05 said:
If its all in your head. I had a conversation with a knife store employee about what I was most eagerly anticipating in the next year for blades. The Condor neckers came up, and I explained that I was looking forward to picking up a few. He stopped and stared at me a moment, and stated "but they are only 1075? I went on to argue that I would love to see some more low cost offerings in 440C, and he almost had a heart attack. I really have found in the last year that the steel chase is just that, a chase. I'm no longer convinced that the next great steel is really all that great for most purposes. That's not to say that I'm not interested, but I feel like my reasons for purchase have evolved more towards design than steel. Anyone else know what I mean? Feel the same way?
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I know exactly how you feel.

What use is the greatest steel if the design of the knife is bad?

Only in America, where disposable income outpases common sense, does the over engineered desgn stand a chance of selling. Most sales these days are based on pure mthical hype. For most of the rest of the world, from farmers in Tanzania to hunters in Amazonion jungle, a plain carbon steel blade in a time tested design gets the job done weather its chopping maize down or quartering a wild pig to bring it back to the village to butcher and cook.

Look at the periods where people were making a commercial living off gathering hides. The old Mountain men used a [lain old design butcher pattern knife. Same thing with the later buffalo hunters. All the best knife designs were around 150 years ago. This modern stuff is just crappy hype ripping off the young know nothing knife obsession ridden buyer.

The never ending quest for the better steel is just another form of snobbery. The bushman with a beat up carbon steel parang will outdo any whiz bang with the lastet design tactical with the newest steel. A knife is a knife. Beyond that, it gets to be weird obsession.
 
The whole "Steel of the month" mentality has ruined the hobby. I'd guess that a vast majority of "Users" could not tell the difference in steels if used on unmarked, yet identical blades.

There's been a few instances of mismarked blades (said they were one type but were actually another), yet no one really noticed.

Knives were being used a lot harder than they are today, and those weren't made out of these fancy steels. I think a lot of it is hype and Fanboy-itis.
 
I'm totally with you on this - I'm looking forward to the condor neckers for the same reason I gave out CS Bushman knives as presents to everyone in the family one year.
Decent heat treat & blade shape but cheap enough to not feel bad about tossing it in the trunk or toolbox for rough use.
 
Actually what I wonder is what most steels would be like if given a premium heat treat.

I've got "good", "so-so" and "crappy" heat treated versions of a number of steels. It seems that in general, less "premium" steels are given less care in their heat treat.

But, then again, since most buyers appear not to desire to pay for a premium heat treat, I suppose this situation is to expected.

And where is this "steel of the month"? I seem to only see one or two existing steels being newly applied to knives in any given year.
 
From hanging around here, I'm kinda starting to be of the mind set that while the steel is important the heat treat is the single most essential part of whole deal and without proper heat treating protocol your gonna wind up with crap no matter what steel or material you start with.

Moreover at some point with all of the boutique steels coming out, at some point basic economics like the law of diminishing returns is going to kick in, or were going to wind up with a material (steel, etc.) and/or process such as friction forging or some other protocol that propels performance, durability, etc. to a point that no one is going to need more than two knives. One folder, one fixed as they will be so well constructed with such high quality materials as the individual will not be able to wear them out through normal or even hard use of ones life.

Arguments could be made that we are nearing are have reached either of these points of diminishing returns or knives that will last a lifetime already. I'm not sure if quite there but I think were getting really, really, close. The recession is slowing it down but if and when the economy gets back on track, I think will reach either of these two places in rather short order, say within 10 years.
 
MikeC said:
Moreover at some point with all of the boutique steels coming out, at some point basic economics like the law of diminishing returns is going to kick in, or were going to wind up with a material (steel, etc.) and/or process such as friction forging or some other protocol that propels performance, durability, etc. to a point that no one is going to need more than two knives. One folder, one fixed as they will be so well constructed with such high quality materials as the individual will not be able to wear them out through normal or even hard use of ones life.

Arguments could be made that we are nearing are have reached either of these points of diminishing returns or knives that will last a lifetime already. I'm not sure if quite there but I think were getting really, really, close. The recession is slowing it down but if and when the economy gets back on track, I think will reach either of these two places in rather short order, say within 10 years.
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Excellent points - I'm with you.
 
jackknife said:
Look at the periods where people were making a commercial living off gathering hides. The old Mountain men used a [lain old design butcher pattern knife. Same thing with the later buffalo hunters. All the best knife designs were around 150 years ago. This modern stuff is just crappy hype ripping off the young know nothing knife obsession ridden buyer.
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I am sure the Indians that lived on the plains and skinned their buffalo with razor sharp flint felt the same way about the mountain men and their knives. They could flake a new edge on their utility knife (which by the way cost much less than even the cheapest of steels) in seconds. Affordable, easy to replace if lost, and could be sharpened in seconds without a finding a suitable rock to grind it on.

With flint being about the earliest of the stainless and rustproof knife materials, it must have looked like a giant step into stupidity to those that had mastered the way of the plains/hunting knife to see a carbon steel blade. Especially when you realize that a chunk of sharpened flint was superior for most tasks.

Remember, the Indians didn't baton. At least not with their flint knives. :D

jackknife said:
The never ending quest for the better steel is just another form of snobbery. The bushman with a beat up carbon steel parang will outdo any whiz bang with the lastet design tactical with the newest steel. A knife is a knife. Beyond that, it gets to be weird obsession.
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I hate progress, too. But I have to say that since I view knives as tools, I am always up for a better tool. I didn't resist carbide saw blades, power tools, or air nailers.

But with 45+ years of EDCing a pocket knife for work, hunting and play, I am always open minded about improvement. I know that change isn't always good, and that new steels in particular aren't all they are cracked up to be.

But I am not going to carry around a sharpened piece of flint, either.

Robert
 
Hi Folks -

Interesting thread.

I have been a collector for many years, but just recently found this forum, which rekindled my interest in knives in general.

I am not a paying member here, but I DO support the board having spent several hundred dollars on knives from vendors and makers here.

I have recently ordered some JK Handmade custom knives - all in 01 steel, and also I am testing the "tech-steel " waters, having ordered a Ritter RSK Mk1 and Spyderdco Military both in CPM M4.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed here, i.e. perhaps the new steels are not that much better than the old, why pay more, the old was good enough for years etc. etc.

However, I also feel like, as an affection-ado, that I can dabble in the new steels to see what they are like for myself.

I could still be driving my 1964 Rambler 440 American to work - it got me there, got my Grandma to work before she gave it to me. Tried, true and tested.

However, it lacked a lot of improvements that the new cars offer, in the realm of safety, comfort, convenience.

I think there is merit to discovery, and if one wants to buy "exotic" or new-age steels to test the waters or just to feel them, that is where progress begins.

If a new alloy doesn't cut the mustard here - we, as a group, will come to that determination for ourselves, and it will give us something to discuss.

Snobbery? Maybe for some, but for someone who spends time from real life on a knife forum, calling it thus is the pot calling the kettle "as forged" :)

Of course this all is based on my not ever having tried the new steels (except for ZDP-189 in a Kershaw).

best regards

mqqn
 
I realize that I'm the exception to the rule, but I have to say that I do in fact use my knives hard enough to tell the difference between premium steels. We are a long way from achieving a lifetime blade for me, and I say "Bring 'em on!" :D
 
I think you have to do a LOT of cutting to notice a real world difference between 1095, AUS8, 440C, ATS-34 and the like. And that's if the knives are of pretty similar design with a good HT. For instance, I had a knife in VG-10, reasonably thick, narrow from edge to spine, hollow ground. It may have been a superb fighter but it couldn't keep up with a lowly Okapi in the kitchen. I had an S30V blade chip out under far less than heavy use and it was a pain to reprofile. I won't even touch ZDP-189 or S90V. I don't really want 420J2 either, I'm not a diver.

The extremes of the steel chart don't interest me much. I guess I'm not that extreme. If I did much wood carving I'd get a Quuen in D2. If I cut a lot of carpet or cardboard I might get a super steel for that purpose. And for the people who do that much cutting at work or in the garage it's cool that there are options in steel. It would be a drag to have to strop every half hour. My own uses are not so severe, a combination of edge holding and toughness. I want to be able to break down a box or two and not ruin my blade if I hit a staple. But I don't do so much cutting or sharpening that I could tell you if my Boker was 1095 or 1075. Just my two cents, and entirely anectdotal.

Frank
 
Yowza, this is a pretty hefty question. Great idea for a topic! :thumbup:

While I don't immediately run out and buy a knife every time a new steel comes out, and I don't think I've tried a single one of the 'super steels' on the market today, I definitely have my steel preferences. So, I don't absolutely need to have a chunk of CPM M4 or whatever on me at all times, I'd rather not make do with a dull chunk of Chinese pot metal. A balance is nice! I'm not too picky about what steel I use, so long as it performs well enough for my uses (so, anywhere from 440a to 13c26 to 1095 work fine for me)
 
A perfect case can be made for steel versus design in my next purchase.

I am in the market for a new chefs knife.

I can go with a more traditional, albeit, Japanese/Euro design that uses VG-10 or SG2, or I was looking at CRK's Sikayo design in S35VN.

I'm not thrilled with the CRK geometry or the sizes,(what was Chris thinking?!?), but the steel is cool.

After reading some reviews elswhere on the Sikayo, I can safely say that I don't want one. The negatives of the design outweigh the positives of the steel.
 
jackknife said:
I know exactly how you feel.

What use is the greatest steel if the design of the knife is bad?

Only in America, where disposable income outpases common sense, does the over engineered desgn stand a chance of selling. Most sales these days are based on pure mthical hype. For most of the rest of the world, from farmers in Tanzania to hunters in Amazonion jungle, a plain carbon steel blade in a time tested design gets the job done weather its chopping maize down or quartering a wild pig to bring it back to the village to butcher and cook.

Look at the periods where people were making a commercial living off gathering hides. The old Mountain men used a [lain old design butcher pattern knife. Same thing with the later buffalo hunters. All the best knife designs were around 150 years ago. This modern stuff is just crappy hype ripping off the young know nothing knife obsession ridden buyer.

The never ending quest for the better steel is just another form of snobbery. The bushman with a beat up carbon steel parang will outdo any whiz bang with the lastet design tactical with the newest steel. A knife is a knife. Beyond that, it gets to be weird obsession.
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Yes, because all the knife users on this forum have requirements that parallel mountain men, tribesmen and rainforest residents. :rolleyes:

I'm getting awful tired of you slipping out of the traditional forum to take shots at modern knife design and the modern knife user. Just like age is not an accomplishment, "new" does not automatically make something junk. This industry has always had it's fair share of hype/marketing driven sales. The old slippie manufacturers didn't make hundreds of different patterns because they were all so useful, nor did they conjure up dozens of "new" blade styles and types because their users desperately needed them. They did it to sell knives, same as the manufacturers today.

Pursuit of better steel is not snobbery in any sense of the word. It's advancement of the tool at it's core, a drive to extend the function of the knife and provide the user with even more capability. Progress is never something be feared or driven back, one must always embrace it and steal away the useful aspects for their own use. In this sense you appear to have failed, accepting rose-tinted nostalgia over the strides in utility that have been made. But there is nothing wrong with this, your choice is always something to be respected, as is mine. To denigrate one or the other unnecessarily divides two groups that have much to offer each other. Champion the designs you find favor with but do not belittle that which is on the horizon, especially when you have almost no first hand experience with it. Seeing something on the computer screen does not give one the evidence to declare it meaningless.

Cynicism and bitterness are always ugly shades to show in public. :thumbdn:
 
I agree with Jacknife being able to post his OPINION on things. But call out others as snobs that are not of his own opinion is certainly no more than his own snobbery.

spoonrobot said:
Cynicism and bitterness are always ugly shades to show in public. :thumbdn:
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*sigh*

It's the first stage of advanced "codgerism", I am afraid.

Next will be a post of the benefits of the old style materials used on a cane to wave while yelling "you kids get out of my yard!!".

I personally use my knives all day. Not every day, but most of them. Working in construction, there are a hundred jobs a day that require a pocket knife.

I left 1095 and the 1080 series steels that were used in my CASE knives in the 60s and 70s for Bucks in 420 and my big Browning folding hunter in 440C. Why? For one simple fact: They didn't rust shut in one day in my pocket. In the S. Texas sun, you sometimes sweat through your work boots and belts as part of your day. Anything in your pocket doesn't stand a chance.

So when I found out how well 440C held an edge and didn't rust... I was totally on board! It was my new favorite work knife.

When I took my 119 hunting and camping in '72 and flipped the canoe over in the river, almost everything steel that I had packed was ruined or really rusted. Not the Buck. There were a couple of minor rust discolorations on the blade, but they flaked off with a fingernail. That made it indispensable. It made it my new favorite hunting knife as blood and guts didn't stick on the blade, or make it start rusting while I was doing other chores. I thought then that 420 was some new wonder steel. (I still do... kinda....)

My KABAR rancher was on that canoe trip and rusted so badly that by the time we got back to the cars I was unable to open it. I wiped it down repeatedly, but it was a rainy and damp trip, and there was nothing much I could do. I didn't carry any oil with me, no WD40, and we ate jerky and noodles, so there wasn't even any animal fat to protect it. It is still rusted shut in the drawer in my bureau.

I am for progress as long as it is progress, and not simply something new to market. I love having knives in my pocket that don't rust shut in one day of really hot sweaty work, and I really like the steels that can work hard all day and still stay sharp enough to use. I am not one to break out the sharpening gear to touch up an edge in front of my employees.

But I know there is another side to real progress. I have an elderly friend that has been telling me for years "ALL change is bad." This is usually followed by a disgusted snort for effect.

Robert
 
Does my ZDP-189 Caly 3 actually have a .005" thick edge?
Can my CPM S90V Military actually cut five times as much cardboard as 440C before it goes dull?
Is H-1 rust proof? (unless you dip it in pure chlorine)
Is INFI actually the toughest blade steel?


My answer is a resounding Yes!
Please note the difference between "this stuff is the best steel ever and anyone who uses anything else is a chump", and performance gains in specific task oriented areas.
I have always tried to carry and use the best blade steel possible. Unfortunately at certain points in time that meant thinking that S30V would make a good "hard use" steel. More recently I've found myself looking at some Condor machetes and utility knives, thinking what fine tools they are.
 
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