Steel. Do You Ever Wonder?

I buy knives from reputable makers so that I can have confidence in the design and tempering.

I also buy CPM M-4, S30V, S90V and ZDP 189 blades. I am willing to pay a premium price in order to have significantly superior steel in my blades.
 
I absolutely agree with Smash! The emphasis some people place on steel is simply ludicrous. I'm not entirely indifferent to what steel a knife is made of to the extent that, if I find a knife that appeals to me, on a design level, and I have a choice between 420J and VG 10 [for example], I'll pick the VG 10 even if it costs more. However I would never buy a knife in a million years, that didn't appeal to me on an aesthetic level,even if it were made out of 154CM-FU or whatever latest blend the knife snobs drool over.
In fact, in my view, individuals who DON'T purchase knives on the basis of design first, aren't true knife lovers at all. Putting steel first is like choosing a girlfriend because you know she has really strong bones.
 
Smash05 said:
If its all in your head. I had a conversation with a knife store employee about what I was most eagerly anticipating in the next year for blades. The Condor neckers came up, and I explained that I was looking forward to picking up a few. He stopped and stared at me a moment, and stated "but they are only 1075? I went on to argue that I would love to see some more low cost offerings in 440C, and he almost had a heart attack. I really have found in the last year that the steel chase is just that, a chase. I'm no longer convinced that the next great steel is really all that great for most purposes. That's not to say that I'm not interested, but I feel like my reasons for purchase have evolved more towards design than steel. Anyone else know what I mean? Feel the same way?
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I have always felt this way. Granted, there are some steels that are better than others for certain purposes, but there really isn't a whole lot more that can currently be done with alloy steel (alloys using more than just iron and carbon for the nit-pickers).
 
jackknife said:
I know exactly how you feel.

What use is the greatest steel if the design of the knife is bad?

Only in America, where disposable income outpases common sense, does the over engineered desgn stand a chance of selling. Most sales these days are based on pure mthical hype. For most of the rest of the world, from farmers in Tanzania to hunters in Amazonion jungle, a plain carbon steel blade in a time tested design gets the job done weather its chopping maize down or quartering a wild pig to bring it back to the village to butcher and cook.

Look at the periods where people were making a commercial living off gathering hides. The old Mountain men used a [lain old design butcher pattern knife. Same thing with the later buffalo hunters. All the best knife designs were around 150 years ago. This modern stuff is just crappy hype ripping off the young know nothing knife obsession ridden buyer.

The never ending quest for the better steel is just another form of snobbery. The bushman with a beat up carbon steel parang will outdo any whiz bang with the lastet design tactical with the newest steel. A knife is a knife. Beyond that, it gets to be weird obsession.
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The job got done with stone and copper for a lot longer than steel, so lets go back to that. Don't confuse skill with a beat up parang and ignorance with a shiny new tactical folder. Also keep in mind that 99% of the steels we are talking about as super steels were or are not made with cutlery in the list of uses. While there are exceptions, most are made for industrial use for wear, like dies for plastics or brick molds, etc. The just happen to work for knives too, once you find a way to reduce them to knife size pieces. Of course the same can be said for almost any steel.

My poking fun at people poking fun at progress aside, 10xx and low alloy steels or 440x are perfectly adequate for 75% of knife use, and the preference for something better is the way humans work.
 
Years ago I read a quote by Jeff Randall from ESEE and he said something to the effect of "people throughout the world who rely on knives daily for their survival use ones made from old car springs" -- I thought that was pretty dead on.

I think compared to our ancestors we are cutlery snobs. Myself included of course. :D

-Stan
 
Once you can sharpen a knife "edge retention" is no longer a big issue. It really comes down to sharpen-abilty. If I can sharpen a knife with only a few strokes on a hard stone then that knife is always going to be sharp. If it takes me a half hour to sharpen a super steel, even if I use diamonds, then that knife will not be sharpened as often, and it will spend more time not being perfectly sharp. This is the compromise for me: edge retention VS sharpness (via sharpen-ability).

Anything that performs as well as 420HC, AUS8, sandvik, or 1075-95 is fine by me.
 
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I find the new steels very interesting but I still love a good 1095 blade with wood handles riding in thick cow hide.
 
midnight flyer said:
I am sure the Indians that lived on the plains and skinned their buffalo with razor sharp flint felt the same way about the mountain men and their knives. They could flake a new edge on their utility knife (which by the way cost much less than even the cheapest of steels) in seconds. Affordable, easy to replace if lost, and could be sharpened in seconds without a finding a suitable rock to grind it on.

With flint being about the earliest of the stainless and rustproof knife materials, it must have looked like a giant step into stupidity to those that had mastered the way of the plains/hunting knife to see a carbon steel blade. Especially when you realize that a chunk of sharpened flint was superior for most tasks.
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It's easy to develop a sense of romanticism about the "good old days", but reality is the Indians traded their bows, stone and bone tools for guns and steel knives and axes as soon as they could, for one simple reason: they lived survival each day of their lives and they survived better with modern tools and weapons.
 
Aside from possibly corrosion resistance in SS vs Carbon and perhaps a bit of keenest ability of better carbon steels, I doubt 99% of knife users could tell the difference in quality blade steels through use. ATS34, D2, 154, S30V, etc etc etc. If it wasn't printed on the side of the knife, you'd probably never know the difference. Edge geometry, grind, design and HEAT TREAT will count more than base material.

Buy a quality blade and use it, and not worry about the latest/greatest advertising.

My $.02 worth.

BOSS
 
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I agree as well, If I like the design of a knife, I don't even look to see what steel it is, OR what brand it is. Some of the best buys I have found in knives are the brands that the knife snobs call junk. I have a 6.00 dollar knife that I have EDC for eight or nine years now, still going strong. It get used every day for everything that a folder can do.
 
The Government said:
Once you can sharpen a knife "edge retention" is no longer a big issue. It really comes down to sharpen-abilty. If I can sharpen a knife with only a few strokes on a hard stone then that knife is always going to be sharp. If it takes me a half hour to sharpen a super steel, even if I use diamonds, then that knife will not be sharpened as often, and it will spend more time not being perfectly sharp. This is the compromise for me: edge retention VS sharpness (via sharpen-ability).

Anything that performs as well as 420HC, AUS8, sandvik, or 1075-95 is fine by me.
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When the knife is dull five minutes into a two hour job, edge retention is a pretty big issue to me. The steel that can be sharpened in a couple of minutes on a hard stone is worthless to me if I have to stop what I'm doing and resharpen my blade six or seven times an hour. The knife that takes half an hour to sharpen on diamond hones but stays usably sharp for several hours of work is the one for me. YMMV.
 
Here's a little info.

Steel Element Information
Carbon (C)
•Increases edge retention and raises tensile strength.
•Increases hardness and improves resistance to wear and abrasion.
Chromium (CR)
•Increases hardness, tensile strength, and toughness.
•Provides resistance to wear and corrosion.
Cobalt (CO)
•Increases strength and hardness, and permits quenching in higher temperatures.
•Intensifies the individual effects of other elements in more complex steels.
Copper (CU)
•Increases corrosion resistance.
Manganese (MN)
•Increases hardenability, wear resistance, and tensile strength.
•Deoxidizes and degasifies to remove oxygen from molten metal.
•In larger quantities, increases hardness and brittleness.
Molybdenum (MO)
•Increases strength, hardness, hardenability, and toughness.
•Improves machinability and resistance to corrosion.
Nickel (NI)
•Adds strength and toughness
.
Nitrogen (N)
•Used in place of carbon for the steel matrix. The Nitrogen atom will function in a similar manner to the carbon atom but offers unusual advantages in corrosion resistance.
Phosphorus (P)
•Improves strength, machinability, and hardness.
•Creates brittleness in high concentrations.
Silicon (SI)
•Increases strength.
•Deoxidizes and degasifies to remove oxygen from molten metal.
Sulfur (S)
•Improves machinability when added in minute quantities.
Tungsten (W)
•Adds strength, toughness, and improves hardenability.
Vanadium (V)
•Increases strength, wear resistance, and increases toughness.
Steel Production And Properties The following provides a very brief overview of steel treatment and properties:

By definition, steel is a combination of iron and no more that 2% carbon. Steel is alloyed with various other elements that combine to produce special properties. Once a particular alloy combination (or steel type) is selected, specific procedures are used to maximize the unique qualities required for that steel to perform. Generally speaking, the process for converting a steel alloy into a premium knife steel is theat reating.

Heat treatment is the most important stage in the evolution of an alloy into a performance knife steel. The first step in the heat treatment process is to reach a critical temperature. This temperature is held for a specific amount of time (depending on the steel being hardened) and causes the steel to become austenetized. Heat treatment is one of the many factors that determines the grain size of the steel (a fine grain structure is more desireable for knife blades because it improves edge retention and enhances blade finish).

Next, the steel is quenched to achieve its maximum level of hardness. At this point, the steel is too hard and brittle for practical use and thus tempering is of key importance in bringing the steel to its ideal hardness level (different knife steels perform best at different levels of hardness). Tempering also increases wear resistance and toughness properties. When tempering, it is important to understand the interaction between hardness and toughness.

An increase in yield strength and tensile strength and a decrease in impact strength and ductility. An increase in toughness is usually accompanied by the opposite effect (i.e. an increase in toughness and ductility and a decrease in yield strength and tensile strength). Therefore, high-impact knifes such as swords and machetes would benefit from a softer blade (to avoid blade breakage), while low-impact knifes such as pocket knifes may benefit from a harder blade (to improve wear resistance). Once tempering is complete, the final hardness of the steel can be determined using a Rockwell Test.
 
I don't use my knives hard enough to justify buying super steel, especially since I actually enjoy sharpening. But, I still buy super steel knives out of curiosity.
 
Lots of impoverished 3rd world bumpkins get by with a mixed grab bag of oddball knives made of junk[read that "medium carbon", I suppose] steel, SO THEREFORE, why would I dare to want or need good steel?

Sure, junky little knives can perform fine in a variety of everyday cutting chores. I've got my fair share of them, lying all over, and I like 'em. But that doesn't mean they are as good as my Sebenza. I wonder how much of this anti-steel-snobbery movement is fueled by:

A. People who simply cannot afford quality knives,

or

B. People who baby their junky little pocket knives on undemanding tasks and so wonder what all the fuss is about with more expensive knives.

None of my remarks should be construed to condemn junky little pocket knives. I love them. But I recognize that they simply aren't as much knife as some $3 or $400 custom.
 
Blue Sky said:
2 hour cutting jobs? Do you do this often, and what exactly are you doing, if you don't mind me asking?
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I gather from Yablanowitz's posts here that he works in construction, most likely remodeling from the work he describes.
 
Blue Sky said:
2 hour cutting jobs? Do you do this often, and what exactly are you doing, if you don't mind me asking?
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I work in building maintenance for a small town housing authority. There are two of us taking care of 133 apartments, 4 laundry facilities and 2 community centers. I deal with vinyl tile, ceramic tile, laminate flooring, old carpet, new carpet, OSB, tempered Masonite, high density particle board, plywood, fiberglass sheeting, PVC pipe, PVC tub surrounds and drywall on a daily basis. Guess how long most steels hold an edge when you're cutting up old, dirty carpet into managable pieces for removal, or cutting out damaged sheetrock to make repairs. Wear resistence is vital for me. Especially since we've been averaging 55 turns (making an apartment ready to rent) a year for the last five years. I literally don't have time to stop and sharpen a knife a dozen times a day.
 
Blue Sky said:
It's easy to develop a sense of romanticism about the "good old days", but reality is the Indians traded their bows, stone and bone tools for guns and steel knives and axes as soon as they could, for one simple reason: they lived survival each day of their lives and they survived better with modern tools and weapons.
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INCREDIBLE to think you were so literal as to miss the hyperbole of having a little fun at his expense...

Of course the Indians traded up when they could.

And we drive instead of walking.

We use phones instead of writing letters.

We use money instead of salt.

Yikes!

Robert
 
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