Steel FAQ follow-up discussion

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Oct 3, 1998
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It's been a long time since I posted the FAQ. Now it's up at the top as a stickied and locked thread ... I know there are things in here I'm not sure I agree with anymore. Any comments or corrections, post 'em here and let's discuss. Thanks!

Joe
 
Mr Talmadge I personally have enjoyed all of the great reference material you have been generous enough to share with all of us here on the Forum. I have 2 metallurgy textbooks: One being "Metallurgy" 3rd edition by B.J. Moniz which is a wonderful college level ( 101 to 104) type textbook for 2 of the Metallurgy classes I took. I also have a great metal working textbook entitled "Machine Tool Practices" by Prentice Hall publishing company.

If there are any other quality reference books you would recommend as an aid to this line of study I would sure like to know about it. ISBN numbers would be very helpful as I have a good friend who works for Barnes & Noble and can even get me good "out of Print" books as well. Great job you have done getting the information out to us. :thumbup:
 
Thanks JD, I really appreciate it! I don't own any of the books I"ve read, and don't remember the names anymore (probably all called Metallurgy or something, which isn't helpful)... hopefully someone like Cliff will chime in with a good list, I know he's well-read in this field.
 
Joe, I don't want to get off-topic but, I think (i hope) I speek for all here in saying thanks for your time and effort with the FAQ and your job as a Mod. I have learned alot from you, among others, want to acknowledge your efforts. Thank you!

*now on to the steel.
 
Thanks for your work here as a teacher!
I would like to know what you think of the new steels that were not yet out during the earlier discussion. Steels like ZDP 189, S125V, CPM 3V, CPM M4. How do they compare to the previous best liked? Thanks again for your time and help.
 
I'm glad to see this FAQ posted in such a place of prominence. I believe this is the same one I read a couple of years ago. My comment at the time was that this should be required reading.
I especially enjoy references of steels, design, sharpening,etc geared for the individual purpose at hand.
 
Some points :

"In steels, strength is
directly correlated with hardness -- the harder the steel, the
stronger it is."

This is true for tensile strength, but for torsional strength (twisting) the behavior is very different, and adjusting the hardness up or down just 1-2 points can cause the strength to crash to ~25% of optimal. Alvin has talked about this a lot on rec.knives and hardens his knives to hit the maximum peak of the torsional strength graphs. The difference is *massive*, I have cut very "abusive" material with his very thin edged knives, thick plastics, bone, and even sod.

"Toughness is obviously important in
jobs such as chopping, but it's also important any time the blade hits
harder impurities in a material being cut (e.g., cardboard, which
often has embedded impurities)."

I thought this was true for awhile, but after doing a *lot* of cardboard cutting I think strength and wear resistance is more important here, I have lots of knives which won't take impact well, but will cut cardboard all day long. I think the chipping in cardboard is from failure from deformation + carbide aggregates and grain size issues at low edge angles.

"Some steels just seem to take a much sharper
edge than other steels, even if sharpened the exact same way.
Finer-grained steels just seem to get scary sharp much more easily
than coarse-grained steels, and this can definitely effect
performance."

Burr formation is a large factor here, as is how the knife is ground, and the latter is influenced by the steel, thus if a maker chooses the steel to the knife (not based on what is hot) and grinds accordingly, you should be able to sharpen it easily, thus an ATS-34 hollow ground knife could sharpen very well for a skinner, but horribly for a hard use tactical, because the steel properties well suit the first but not the latter. This is a complex attribute but essentially when considering ease of sharpening, the knife has to be considering just like when talking about "best steels" in general.

" D-2 is much tougher than
the premium stainless steels like ATS-34.."

In terms of impact tests it is similar, it also tends to shatter when broken, or fragment, as opposed to most tool steels which will break clean, many stainless steels are like this, when they break they leave lots of pieces and some can be projectiles, in general, the softer more ductile stainless steels like 440A break clean.

"However, M-2 rusts easily."

Compared to 1095 M2 is very rust resistant, and many tool steels like O1, L6, 5160 also rust very quickly, for the tool steels, M2 is one of the best at resisting corrosion, it doesn't compare well to the stainless steels, but they can also pit badly in extended salt water soaks, something that the tool steels don't - so there is a difference between resisting short term surface corrosion and long term pitting damage.

[S30V]

"This steel gives A-2-class toughness and almost-S90V
class wear resistance, at reasonable hardness (~59-60 Rc). "

S30V's toughness is only A2 level along the grain which is never loaded in impact, along the grain which is, it is similar to the other steels and it doesn't respond well to impact. I have broken several high end S30V blades by impact and it is easy, a light pop with a hammer. The wear resistance is also a lot lower than S90V, only about 30%. There is also some promotion of CPM-154CM now to replace S30V or at least be an alternative due to its higher machinability, plus that section of the FAQ is a little dated as S30V has been out for a few years now and thus its perforamnce is very well known. The hardness range used is also wider, ~55-63 HRC. Reeve hits the lower end on his fixed blades and Wilson the higher.

"Mission knives uses titanium."

They use Beta-Ti which is much stronger than the low end Titanium knives, it is very resistant to impact, you can actually cold work it, and extremely flexible, it won't break by bending, you actually have to *rip* the blade apart.

Great reference as with all the FAQ's.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Cliff Stamp said:
This is true for tensile strength, but for torsional strength (twisting) the behavior is very different, and adjusting the hardness up or down just 1-2 points can cause the strength to crash to ~25% of optimal. Alvin has talked about this a lot on rec.knives and hardens his knives to hit the maximum peak of the torsional strength graphs. The difference is *massive*, I have cut very "abusive" material with his very thin edged knives, thick plastics, bone, and even sod.

Interesting, I'll have to slum over at r.k more often :) I haven't made distinctions in the variou stypes of strength, just generally looking at when an edge seems to blunt or indent.

Burr formation is a large factor here, as is how the knife is ground, and the latter is influenced by the steel, thus if a maker chooses the steel to the knife (not based on what is hot) and grinds accordingly, you should be able to sharpen it easily, thus an ATS-34 hollow ground knife could sharpen very well for a skinner, but horribly for a hard use tactical, because the steel properties well suit the first but not the latter. This is a complex attribute but essentially when considering ease of sharpening, the knife has to be considering just like when talking about "best steels" in general.

I agree about the points above regarding matching attributes to use and profile ... but I keep coming around to how easily 8A and VG-10 seem to sharpen up for me, regardless of what they're used in.

Compared to 1095 M2 is very rust resistant, and many tool steels like O1, L6, 5160 also rust very quickly, for the tool steels, M2 is one of the best at resisting corrosion, it doesn't compare well to the stainless steels, but they can also pit badly in extended salt water soaks, something that the tool steels don't - so there is a difference between resisting short term surface corrosion and long term pitting damage.

Agreed ... Some of these statements are remnants from the very first FAQ version. I've been trying to go through and make these kinds of statements a bit more relative.

S30V's toughness is only A2 level along the grain which is never loaded in impact, along the grain which is, it is similar to the other steels and it doesn't respond well to impact. I have broken several high end S30V blades by impact and it is easy, a light pop with a hammer. The wear resistance is also a lot lower than S90V, only about 30%. There is also some promotion of CPM-154CM now to replace S30V or at least be an alternative due to its higher machinability, plus that section of the FAQ is a little dated as S30V has been out for a few years now and thus its perforamnce is very well known. The hardness range used is also wider, ~55-63 HRC. Reeve hits the lower end on his fixed blades and Wilson the higher.

Yep, when I wrote that section of the FAQ, S30V was brand spanking new, and we knew very little about it except what the knifemakers said. I would re-do the S30v section next time around.

Thanks for these comments, and also the ones I didn't quote and respond to. I'll keep them in mind for the next version.

Joe
 
I guess I've never considered S30V to be all that tough. Wear resistance yes, but it seems best suited to medium duty folders like the Rat Trap to me. I doubt if Swamp Rat would have used S30V if they wanted that folder to be a 'heavy duty' one.

I guess what I am saying is that S30V looks better on paper than what I have read performance wise from actual use. I guess I expected more out of it after all the initial hype that surrounded it. I would think the CPM154CM would hold up much bettter to impact. Would you guys concurr? I guess to me the ease with which tips and blades break with S30V is a red flag. I have reprofiled too many to recall the number due to tips breaking off. At first it seemed to be just typical operator error but more and more people say they were surprised when it happened with no warning or really anyway to predict that it would snap that easily at the thinner parts of the blade.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
I haven't made distinctions in the various stypes of strength ...

Neither did I, I assumed they were all proportional and the relationship was simple, Alvin noted that torsional loads are different though, for example :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphStrength.jpg

Note the rather narrow peak at the maximum value, and how it falls off dramatically around the maxium value. Torsional impact is even more sharp regarding optimal levels :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graph1095.jpg

Alvin hardens his knives so they hit the peak of the torsional toughness which also places them quite close to the torsional max strength, the edges are extremely durable, you can take a fine ground paring knife and cut up sods with it and see little to no edge damage.

...but I keep coming around to how easily 8A and VG-10 seem to sharpen up for me, regardless of what they're used in.

Yes, my point here is that some allowance needs to be made for the knife, take someone who has a D2 blade from Krein in a skinner/utility with a very thin edge on a high hollow grind. He finds the blade really easy to sharpen as he has to remove almost no metal. Now take another guy with the same steel at the same hardness in a big tactical chopper with a much thicker and more obtuse edge, he is likely to see chipping in use and will find it difficult to sharpen.

You can see the same thing in AUS-8A for example vs 1095 (Alvin style) if you go to really low edge profiles. The stainless steel simply won't have the strength to hold the edge and thus it will take visible damage while the 1095 blade is still very sharp. Thus you note that 1095 at ~66 HRC is way easier to sharpen than AUS-8A at ~58 HRC because you have to do much less metal removal. But put fairly obtuse micro-bevels on them and now the AUS-8A sharpens nicely as it isn't cracking apart anymore.

In regards to CPM-154CM, this seems to me to be a step backward, this is promoted as just ease of machining over S30V and if this is a problem for the user then there is something wrong with the knife, of course it makes life easier for the makers, but do you expect to see a large price decrease when the steels switch - otherwise it isn't attractive.

-Cliff
 
Hi, this is my first post!

I found this discussion fascinating. I now am clueless about the best edge proflie for 52100 Bainite, CPM 3V, and CPM 125V.

In addition, thanks to this thread i'm totally in the dark about torsional strength vs. hardness curves for the above steels.

Help needed! How hard? what edge type? thanks, great discussion. Jeff
 
The edge profile should essentially be the minimum required to keep the edge strong enough to prevent rippling or direct compaction. This means the stronger and tougher the steel the smaller the cross section. Skill and the difficultly of work makes a huge influence as well. The harder work you intend to do the more steel is required at the edge and the more skill you have the less reinforced the knife has to be to take the loads/impacts.

With coarse grained tool steels and most stainless steels there is a problem with edge stability if you do under a certain angle point and thus even if the steel has the strength to resist rolling, it can't actually take the edge and just breaks apart as it is too coarse a structure. This usually sets in when angles get around ten degrees or less. In contrast finer grained steels can do down to 2-3 degrees and still be perfectly stable cutting soft materials, ropes cardboard and soft woods.

In regards to torsional curves and other such details, this has been discussed massively in great detail on rec.knives, Alvin Johnson has posted reams of information from ASM and other metals texts on the issue including many graphs on various steels. I have started linking them into the various reviews with are relevant. What is of critical importance is to note that hardness alone isn't enough to determine the performance and that even small shifts in hardness can mean the strength and especially toughness can change massively as in more than 50%.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The edge profile should essentially be the minimum required to keep the edge strong enough to prevent rippling or direct compaction. This means the stronger and tougher the steel the smaller the cross section.
-Cliff

Cliff, this implies a good balance between hardness with torsional strength (rippling) and hardness for compressive and tensile strength with all out toughness (where does this apply, rippling? compaction?). Those properties are normally in an inverse relationship!

Example, Kitchen chef's knife, 10 degree edge with 52100 or 3 degree edge with S125V?

I've been doing quite a bit of research on rec.knives
 
..job you do as moderator and the "Steel Facts" and last but not least the excellent sharpening advice you have given me.You've saved me time ,money and no doubt some good knives.Keep up the good work sir!!!:thumbup:
 
This is a question for Joe Talmadge, Cliff Stamp or any of you other guys with a "STEEL Phd" :cool: . We have been chatting at length about the possibility of a new, top notch Hawkbill blade on the Spyderco.com Forum. I just recently suggested the use of S30V as an ideal blade steel mainly based on the excellent luck that I have had with my Spyderco Dodo with S30V.

After reading and trying to absorb what you guys have been chatting about I have maybe changed my mind about what blade steel to use. I am wondering now if VG-10 wouldn't be a better choice? But we were looking for an American steel ( Hopefully Crucible) that would be most proficient for the types of cutting situations you could be caught up in with a Hawkbill. I am sure that toughness and tensile strength would be very desirable properties for the optimal use and the ability of a good Hawkbill to withstand anticapated punishment one might encounter.

I have been hearing a lot about S3V and S125V here of late. But what do you guys say. If you were going to make a Hawkbill blade and want it to perform under the most brutal of conditions which would you all pick? Or maybe there might be 2 or 3 of them that would be ideal? IF so then which ones are they?
 
twistedneck said:
Cliff, this implies a good balance between hardness with torsional strength (rippling) and hardness for compressive and tensile strength with all out toughness (where does this apply, rippling? compaction?). Those properties are normally in an inverse relationship!

Yes they are, for example :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphA2vsO1.jpg

Note that as the strength decreases past 350F the ductility increases rapidly, thus you have to think about which is more important. So you can pick something like 350F to optomize strength or 700F which trades 10-15% strength and a few HRC points for ~50% of ductility and also hits one of the torsional impact peaks as well.

Example, Kitchen chef's knife, 10 degree edge with 52100 or 3 degree edge with S125V?

How you harden makes a lot of difference, few 52100 knives are close to maximal hardness and likely won't show the limits of that steel for a light cutting knife. S125V is also probably way to coarse grained for that light an edge, you want a really fine grained steel for that low because the edge simply can't be stable unless is is very fine grained.

JD Spydo said:
We have been chatting at length about the possibility of a new, top notch Hawkbill blade on the Spyderco.com Forum.?

For what uses? Does it have to be stainless?

-Cliff
 
NO Cliff as far as I am concerned I would be content with a non stainless blade on a Hawkbill type knife. After talking to Bob Dozier at the 2004 Blade show and him sharing with me the attributes of D-2 I am wondering if that wouldn't be a great choice for a Hawkbill. However Spyderco seems to have a tradition for using premium stainless blades.

Cliff, Joe Talmadge or any of you other guys who are "Steel Scholars" I would sure like you alls take on what you all would use if you were making a premium Hawkbill blade. Fixed or Folder. I would love to see one in ZDP-189 but I wonder if it would be subject to chipping or the tip breaking. Thanks guys. :)
 
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