Steel lockbar inserts and ZT fanboy ramble

Heartland_edc

Heartland_edc

Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
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I'm a huge fan of ZT knives. Specifically their titanium framelocks with bearings and lockbar inserts. I've never owned one that didn't function exactly the way I wanted it to. The detents are strong, the deployment is smooth, and the lockout is solid and makes a VERY satisfying noise. On top of that, those insert frame locks don't budge from the day you get them. I collect a lot of different framelocks, generally just as a search for something that feels more premium, but I always find myself returning to ZT's production line for that awesome feeling.

Take the ZT 0920 for example. Full 3D machined titanium handles, a 3.9 inch cpm20cv blade, bearing pivot system, and a hardened steel lockbar insert. All that, and they're made in the USA with notoriously high standards of quality control. $240? That's an amazing price for what you get. I can totally understand higher prices for folders that have a little more personal time put into them, custom fitted parts, premium finishes etc, (and I'm certainly not complaining about what they charge) but what I don't understand is why we don't see more hardened lockbar inserts in... well basically all titanium framelocks above $200.

This just seems like a no brainer to me. I mean, I get why Rick Hinderer doesn't put bearings in his folders. They fire hard, and would increase the wear on the lockbar or where the blade stops meet the frame. Wouldn't an insert alleviate this? While not everyone here is a fan of the Hinderer line of knives, I can't help but think his fan base would go absolutely nutter-butters for an XM 18 with a lockbar insert. Obviously this would cost him some money initially to get his machines set up to mass produce lockbars this way, but I would have to assume he would sell more, and save money on repairs in the long run. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just seems crazy that ZT can make (IMO) a better, more reliable version of his knife (the 0392) and charge slightly less for it.

I didn't dig into the forums, but I'm sure this is a tired subject. And I'm not picking on Hinderer knives specifically (I'm actually a huge fan.) Basically all high end production/midtech frame locks suffer from the same thing. Chris Reeve seems to have it figured out. That ceramic ball on his 25s and Zaans are exactly that, and they run $425-$450ish. Any thoughts on why we don't see more of these? Is there a drawback? I remember hearing something from a book written by Bob Terzoula. There was something he mentioned about them possibly not being necessary or maybe even a potential hindrance over time. If anyone would care to elaborate, I'd love to hear more!

*EDIT* To be clear, my argument is: From a business perspective, doesn't a lockbar insert make more sense if done correctly on production/midtech knives?
 
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Mass production and sales makes stuff cheaper.

For mass production some things like the steel lockbar insert are a belt and suspenders requirement that prevents future problems.

For hand built small batch stuff they're not needed as much due to the time spent hands on building the knife.

Which is better? That's an unanswerable question. Both types will have their fans.
 
Please don't take this as an insult Heartland_edc, but as soon as I see a wall of uninterrupted text, I don't even bother reading. I know many others won't bother either.

Could you please edit your post so that there are paragraphs and breaks? Thank you.
 
0804 opened by flipping

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jill jackson said:
Baloney, about half the Zero Tolerence frame locks I've bought with steel inserts can be pushed with moderate thumb pressure all the way to the other side. That includes a 0452, 0804 and a 0920.
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Well sure. I agree with you. But, if I wanted to break my blade, I could probably figure out a way to do that too. But why? My point is that under normal conditions, the lockbar should serve as a catalyst for extending the life of your tool. The same way premium steel should extend the cutting life of the blade. I don't think breaking a premium blade or forcing a chip inserted lockbar to the other side proves anything.
 
jill jackson said:
Baloney, about half the Zero Tolerence frame locks I've bought with steel inserts can be pushed with moderate thumb pressure all the way to the other side. That includes a 0452, 0804 and a 0920.
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I tend to agree. Imho the lock geometry is too flat. It's also a lot worse on the knives with a sub frame lock. A little drift is fine. But I don't like being able to jam a lock bar so much that it sticks. I used to give zt some slack thinking it was just something that came with the territory of a lock bar insert. But I have had too many knives from other brands that it's not an issue with to believe it's just inherent in all LBI knives.
 
I've had my ZT's slide over with a firm grip and a hard cut. That's real world. I don't mind steel inserts, but IME (mainly ZT) they are far too slippery.
 
Yep, only the Zero Tolerence knives I've bought have the problem. Strange because some of the same models are rock solid.
 
Ok. These are fair arguments. So inconsistency in mass production is the main issue? Here's my next argument:

In all of these circumstances, the manufacturer (in this case, ZT) would simply need to replace the insert. And in the most extreme circumstance, adjust it so that it interacts appropriately with the tang of the blade. This should cut costs because they wouldn't have to replace the knife. Even if, say, 1/4 of their products behaved this way, it should still save them an enormous amount in production expenses versus replacing even 2% of their standard framelocks with similar failures. The 0560 from what I remember had terrible lockface issues. Far-right side wear/lock stick became something to be expected from that knife, and they eventually put an insert in the lockbar before discontinuing it. Just a friendly debate response. I'm mostly trying to get a good understanding of this.
 
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ZT 0550 & ZT 0566, both have such severe lock stick that they cannot be used for hard cuts without the help of something to pry open the lock. The 566 has been like this since new and the 550 developed it over time. Im disappointed because I really liked both, especially the 550.
 
Surely, someone has tried this with a Sebenza 25/Zaan. What is the end result when trying to force that ceramic ball to the other side, or using it for hard cuts? I don't hear many complaints about those knives, so I'm left with the understanding that when done correctly, some kind of hardened insert can make a difference?
 
Heartland_edc said:
Ok. These are fair arguments. So inconsistency in mass production is the main issue? Here's my next argument:

In all of these circumstances, the manufacturer (in this case, ZT) would simply need to replace the insert. And in the most extreme circumstance, adjust it so that it interacts appropriately with the tang of the blade. This should cut costs because they wouldn't have to replace the knife. Even if, say, 1/4 of their products behaved this way, it should still save them an enormous amount in production expenses versus replacing even 2% of their standard framelocks with similar failures. The 0560 from what I remember had terrible lockface issues. Far-right side wear/lock stick became something to be expected from that knife, and they eventually put an insert in the lockbar before discontinuing it. Just a friendly debate response. I'm mostly trying to get a good understanding of this.
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With my 0450cf, it was returned to me, unchanged, with a stamp on the warranty form. I explained thoroughly what was wrong with the knife (the worst slider I've had) on the form, but alas I guess it was not deemed a problem. Kinda turned me off the brand after that one :(

I agree with you though, that the concept of just replacing the insert makes a lot of sense.
 
Heartland_edc said:
Surely, someone has tried this with a Sebenza 25/Zaan. What is the end result when trying to force that ceramic ball to the other side, or using it for hard cuts? I don't hear many complaints about those knives, so I'm left with the understanding that when done correctly, some kind of hardened insert can make a difference?
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My 25 can be pushed over some. No where near to the degree my ZTs could. Even then it unlocks just like normal. But this only happens when I force it over. I can make hard cuts and it does not get stuck (maybe it does move some).
 
^Sorry to hear that knifebro!^ I'd be pretty bummed too. Of course, the irony in my situation is, ZT can't replace the insert on my 0392 if it ever fails because the damn thing is a part of a limited run! :confused:

That feedback on your 25 is very interesting to me. In fact, I'm tempted to buy one purely based on your testimony! Now I'm even more curious as to why some other makers don't give it a shot
 
KIVALO said:
ZT 0550 & ZT 0566, both have such severe lock stick that they cannot be used for hard cuts without the help of something to pry open the lock. The 566 has been like this since new and the 550 developed it over time. Im disappointed because I really liked both, especially the 550.
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This same thing happened when I cut a zip tie with my 0900, I had to get a screw driver to unlock the blade. I thought it was a fluke so I cut another zip tie and lock was stuck again. Thats the main reason I sold an otherwise fantastic knife
 
Its all good. Moved it onto a friend who could care less about lock bars and inserts and blade steel etc. :thumbsup:

Concerning your 0392, did ZT tell you that? I'd think it wouldn't be too hard to cut some for repairs if they don't already have some set aside for this purpose.
 
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