Steel lockbar inserts and ZT fanboy ramble

They gave me an understandably vague response. The woman on the other end said "we can't send you another lockbar insert with it being a limited model, but if you ever have any issues with the knife or the lockbar itself during normal use, send it in and we'll see what we can do. You're warranty is still fully valid, even on limited models." I guess I can't complain about that. Not sure if that means they don't have chips lying around or can't make more or if they would try to cut one if something happened.
 
I own and like both RHK and Zt blades. I have found that my Hinderer's have better lock up and less lockbar movement when cutting through more demanding materials.

Lockbar inserts are not that important to me. Whitty from Usamadeblade put a pic of two Xm-24's on instagram a while back. The pic was of the lockup. One was brand new, the other was his personal knife opened over 1k times. Both pics looked exactly the same.
 
Heartland_edc said:
They gave me an understandably vague response. The woman on the other end said "we can't send you another lockbar insert with it being a limited model, but if you ever have any issues with the knife or the lockbar itself during normal use, send it in and we'll see what we can do. You're warranty is still fully valid, even on limited models." I guess I can't complain about that. Not sure if that means they don't have chips lying around or can't make more or if they would try to cut one if something happened.
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Im sorry but that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. They cant give a lbi because its a limited run. Yeah a limited run with a new variation on every new horizon. I wonder if that lbi is shared by any other models. Thats is probably my biggest gripe with kai. If they discontinued the blur today, they wouldnt ship you a part for it tomorrow no matter how many they have laying around.
 
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My ZT450 lockbar started getting stuck a couple weeks ago. Glad to see it’s not just me. Happens during normal use, just flipping it open, and I need two hands sometimes to close the knife. Oh well, still an amazing blade.
 
Mobster1983 said:
My ZT450 lockbar started getting stuck a couple weeks ago. Glad to see it’s not just me. Happens during normal use, just flipping it open, and I need two hands sometimes to close the knife. Oh well, still an amazing blade.
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It may sound stupid but have you checked to make sure your pivot is still tight? Not all times but sometimes if the pivot loosens it can throw off geometry in the open position and wedge the lockbar.
 
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I'll never buy another frame lock until manufacturers figure out a way to stop them wearing out early, sticking, rocking, slipping out or being able to push all the way to 100% with a little pressure. I've owned them all, ZT's, Sebenzas, Hinderers etc. bla bla. The actual knife/blade/handle elements i love - but those locks, i'm done with them. It's an almost lazy way of designing a locking mechanism and there is just too much inconsistency no matter what brand you buy. Tri-Ad locks, Axis locks, normal well made back locks and some old school steel liner locks (Spydie Military style) are what i stick to these days. Dodgy frame locks just bug me to the point of selling the knife off. Just my opinion based on many years of owning, using and maintaining them.
 
I personally don't buy framelocks without a lock insert anymore. There's just no excuse for it other than pure laziness, especially on expensive knives.

Regardless of what anyone tells you, if you actually use your knives frequently the titanium will wear down and the lock face won't make contact like it once did. This could introduce lock rock or blade play, but even if it doesn't, the knife is simply not as safe as it should be.

On production and midtech knives it's an absolute no brainer, but there are custom makers out there doing great lock inserts, and some of them are even innovating in this area. Jason Guthrie's tungsten inserts come to mind.

Lock stability and longevity are of upmost importance for any folding knife that's going to see real world use. There's just no reason for makers to forgo a lock insert these days.
 
LBI are an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist imo. A frame lock with PROPER geometry and carbidized or heat treated face will wear no faster in real use than an LBI. They add complexity to manufacturing and as many people have experienced actually promote lock slip if not executed to 100% where a ti/steel interface would likely hold firm due to the combined friction.

It's easy to see why makers add them though, the market see them as an added value for longevity and adds slight costs for the maker. Does anyone have the Rockwell numbers on the inserts that say ZT uses? Are they softer than the blade itself to act as a sacrificial piece? My main complaint is they are not user replaceable and as fast as models come and go, by the time one may need to be replaced that model and all it's parts will have been dicontinued and you are still left with a broken knife.
 
dwdickey said:
Does anyone have the Rockwell numbers on the inserts that say ZT uses?
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I've wondered that myself. Wouldn't they want it to match the Rockwell of the blade? Or maybe slightly softer so that the blade tang itself isn't the thing wearing away? Interesting question.
 
Lock bar inserts are more overrated than the Spydie PM2.
My Zt302 is still vault like after a decade flipping. Same with sebbies.
 
jill jackson said:
My problem is consistency, because many have mushy lockup and about as many more, have solid.
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I think the whole insert thing is to prevent lock stick and try to reduce wear. But the side affect is as you stated. That kind of lockbar travel may not be worth it, I rather some lock stick.
 
I have other brands with steel inserts and they don't move over with pressure on the lockbar, like the ZTs.
 
Heartland_edc said:
They fire hard, and would increase the wear on the lockbar or where the blade stops meet the frame.
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Does not look like he thinks it wears. If a lock is wearing its something else arry according to this. And the stick is for solid care free lockup.

 
OP - this is an interesting thread.

About ZT 0920, I agree it is a very good bang for your buck folder. A close comparison with it is Spyderco fluted titanium Military. They are about the same size, similarly 3D machined ti handle, and lesser steel on the millie which sells for $40 more.

The topic of a lockbar insert has been discussed many times before. I tend to believe it is a solution to a problem that very rarely happens. I wonder how many people actually wear out their Hinderer lock face such that lock rock is developed.

Also, as much as I love ZT, I did experience the lockbar traveling all the way to the other side under pressure on some of my ZTs. None of my other franelock folders has this issues: Reate Horizon D, two XM-18s, Spyderco Ti Millie, and Kizer Ki5401. Never tested it on my Sebenza 21 (which already sold).
 
Heartland_edc said:
ZT can't replace the insert on my 0392 if it ever fails because the damn thing is a part of a limited run! :confused:
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I was under the impression the insert was the same all across the ZT line. Certainly seems that way to me with the ones I've opened up. I may very well be wrong though.

And pretty sure they don't send those out just so others don't procure parts for their own knife making or even counterfeiters trying to score genuine ZT parts to throw on the clones out there.
 
dwdickey said:
LBI are an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist imo. A frame lock with PROPER geometry and carbidized or heat treated face will wear no faster in real use than an LBI. They add complexity to manufacturing and as many people have experienced actually promote lock slip if not executed to 100% where a ti/steel interface would likely hold firm due to the combined friction.

It's easy to see why makers add them though, the market see them as an added value for longevity and adds slight costs for the maker. Does anyone have the Rockwell numbers on the inserts that say ZT uses? Are they softer than the blade itself to act as a sacrificial piece? My main complaint is they are not user replaceable and as fast as models come and go, by the time one may need to be replaced that model and all it's parts will have been dicontinued and you are still left with a broken knife.
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I agree. A properly carburized Ti lock bar should hold and not slip any appreciable amount. If it causes problems, it can be a crappy job of carburizing, a bad lock bar cut, or improperly ground tang or various combinations of the three.

I had a Mayo Dr Death Jr flipper (IKBS) that I flipped several thousand times over the years I owned it. The lock bar engagement moved almost an imperceptible amount and it engaged the tang the full height of the lock bar. It's all in good lock geometry and who fits it. A large scale manufacturer does not have the time (and may not have the personnel) to properly tune a lock. There's a lot more to it than assembling parts. Ask any custom knife maker.
 
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I have flippers with LBIs and without.
Both types have been obsessively flipped and I see no difference with wear on either.
The only problem I have had with knives that don't have a LBI was getting lube on the lock face. Oooops!!
Other than that, no problems at all.
Joe
 
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