Steel Performance vs workability

[comet_sharp]

Hey guys,
What do you guys think is the best performing steel for kitchen knives that still forges nicely by hand. I have used 52100 for years and recently forged my first 1095 knife because AKS recently got some with very nice composition. After forging this 1095 and feeling how nice it was to work im now wanting to try more steels!
Ill be keeping my eye on NJSB for when W2 restocks, curious about W1 as well. Seen some drill rod with upwards of 1.2%C floating around. Also have a bar of aogami 2 but have a feeling it'll be harder to forge than the 52100.
What do you guys think are the best performing steels for kitchen blades that still hand forge nicely?
Thanks,
-Trey

 

[DevinT]

Simple carbon steels forge easiest. Low alloy steels are a little harder and high alloy, tool steels and stainless are the hardest.

Aside from forging, finishing is what I worry about. High vanadium steels take forever to grind and finish. Tungsten alloyed steels can be a little problematic to finish. (Blue #2)

Heat treating, including annealing, gets a little more tricky the more alloy there is.

Hoss

 

[comet_sharp]

Thanks for the reply. I forge kurouchi monosteel kitchen knives. Forging and heat treating 52100 knives forged thinner than 2mm has taught me a lot of patience in regards to heat treating. My steel now gets quenched and sub critical annealed and straightened around 1250-1350 before the final austentizing now to reduce/prevent distortions. (Only worked with 52100 and 1095 so far)
Most blades, except honyaki, have very little grinding/finishing so I do have that in my favor. I have a bar of 1.2519 but dont think my hand hammer will do much to it
The lack of chrome in blue 2 makes it seem a bit more accessible.
Thanks,
-Trey

Simple carbon steels forge easiest. Low alloy steels are a little harder and high alloy, tool steels and stainless are the hardest.

Aside from forging, finishing is what I worry about. High vanadium steels take forever to grind and finish. Tungsten alloyed steels can be a little problematic to finish. (Blue #2)

Heat treating, including annealing, gets a little more tricky the more alloy there is.

Hoss

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

If the steels you are forging won't move under a hand hammer, you probably are forging too cold.

A technique I have developed is to quench the blade and take out of the oil after 5 seconds. Do any severe warp straightening with gloved hands … and then place in the quench plates until completely cool. This has virtually eliminated long, thin, blade warpage.

 

[comet_sharp]

Yes turning up the heat was my first lesson with 52100. I was forging too cold at first, now forging to final dimensions its just becoming a pain, thin blades cool fast. When I'm forging 1095 even at lower red heats it is slightly malleable, once the 52100 hits red it stops moving. I can forge a 1095 knife much faster and it just feels better to hit.
I really need to invest in a pair of plates for my shop. I used to pull out of quench and straighten but i would usually over straighten and have to temper back anyway ha. Thanks to stress relieving cycles now i just go in quench straight and come out straight, occassionally ill have a tip twerk i can catch out of quench or get in temper.

If the steels you are forging won't move under a hand hammer, you probably are forging too cold.

A technique I have developed is to quench the blade and take out of the oil after 5 seconds. Do any severe warp straightening with gloved hands … and then place in the quench plates until completely cool. This has virtually eliminated long, thin, blade warpage.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

When a steel needs to be hotter to forge it is called "red short". That means you shoulstart forging at around 2100F and stop forging at around 1800-1850F. Tryingbto forge below that point is wasting your arm.
With all steel you should never forging in the red range - 1600F and below. Start at 2100F and quit at 1700F. Light straightening taps down to 1500F will not ruin things, but hamering is bad. I have a wooden hammer ( I call it a schwacker) I use for the straightening blows. Even if you can still move the steel, you are doings severe damage to the grain boundaries. The damage done forging too cold cannot be remedied by subsequent forging cycles, and can cause blades to crack/break in quench or in use.

 

[comet_sharp]

I cracked a few 52100 blades my first months. By "red" heats i generally mean around 1650. I stop forging around my nornalizing temps and keep to straightening taos with my doghead.
-Trey

When a steel needs to be hotter to forge it is called "red short". That means you shoulstart forging at around 2100F and stop forging at around 1800-1850F. Tryingbto forge below that point is wasting your arm.
With all steel you should never forging in the red range - 1600F and below. Start at 2100F and quit at 1700F. Light straightening taps down to 1500F will not ruin things, but hamering is bad. I have a wooden hammer ( I call it a schwacker) I use for the straightening blows. Even if you can still move the steel, you are doings severe damage to the grain boundaries. The damage done forging too cold cannot be remedied by subsequent forging cycles, and can cause blades to crack/break in quench or in use.

 

[MoSmith]

When a steel needs to be hotter to forge it is called "red short". That means you shoulstart forging at around 2100F and stop forging at around 1800-1850F. Tryingbto forge below that point is wasting your arm.
With all steel you should never forging in the red range - 1600F and below. Start at 2100F and quit at 1700F. Light straightening taps down to 1500F will not ruin things, but hamering is bad. I have a wooden hammer ( I call it a schwacker) I use for the straightening blows. Even if you can still move the steel, you are doings severe damage to the grain boundaries. The damage done forging too cold cannot be remedied by subsequent forging cycles, and can cause blades to crack/break in quench or in use.

Thank you for the info on steel being red-short. When I first started making knives I tried using some worn-out files. When I heated them and hit the steel it crumbled like cookie dough or something. Since they were some cheapo Chinese files I had assumed the metal was just poor quality and had some kind of contaminant so I went on to try something else. I should have gotten it a LOT hotter.
Thanks again.

 

[DevinT]

Thank you for the info on steel being red-short. When I first started making knives I tried using some worn-out files. When I heated them and hit the steel it crumbled like cookie dough or something. Since they were some cheapo Chinese files I had assumed the metal was just poor quality and had some kind of contaminant so I went on to try something else. I should have gotten it a LOT hotter.
Thanks again.

It’s more likely that you were too hot not too cold.

Hoss

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yes, when you heat the steel above 2200F and try to forge it will mush apart. The bonds between the grains and molecules are very weak at that point and a hard blow will crumble the steel just like hitting oatmeal cookie dough. At 2600F it melts.

The reason to learn how to determine the approximate temperature of the steel is to keep it in the "forging range". It is called that for a good reason - any forging above or below that range will likely cause problems.

 

[MoSmith]

It’s more likely that you were too hot not too cold.

Hoss

That's possible, certainly. I use a solid fuel forge so temp control can be tough and lump charcoal makes a really hot fire. These days I no longer use "mystery steel" and things work a whole lot better.

 

[MoSmith]

Yes, when you heat the steel above 2200F and try to forge it will mush apart. The bonds between the grains and molecules are very weak at that point and a hard blow will crumble the steel just like hitting oatmeal cookie dough. At 2600F it melts.

The reason to learn how to determine the approximate temperature of the steel is to keep it in the "forging range". It is called that for a good reason - any forging above or below that range will likely cause problems.

I'm pretty sure I didn't have it nearly that hot. In dim light I think that would be a bright white incandescence color and I know it wasn't close to that. I was using lump charcoal at the time though and that does make a hot fire.

 

[JTknives]

You could have burned the steel. It’s common to have steel crumble because its burned. If your steel comes out of the forge looking like a sparkler then it’s to hot lol

 

[MoSmith]

You could have burned the steel. It’s common to have steel crumble because its burned. If your steel comes out of the forge looking like a sparkler then it’s to hot lol

Thanks, but that wasn't the issue. I've done that a few times when messing around with mild steel. My teacher showed me and told me to just cut that bit off and start over. I use a solid fuel forge so this is real easy for me to do.
Thanks again.