Steel quality of early Bowies

[upnorth]

If in fact Bowies originated from Sheffield then I would be quite impressed. I can just imagine a staid Brit knifemaker puzzling over an order from America for huge knives!

The British made whatever the market dictated. Such as the Hudson Bay knife used from the arctic to the buffalo butchering plains.



As for quality I have no empirical evidence one way or the other on fur trade pieces. But I have read many historical references stating that Canadian natives became quickly aware of which products were durable, and which were substandard. I know that the Hudson Bay Co. specifically mandated a higher quality axe to compete with the French trade as the natives became very discerning and refused to trade for junk iron tools. This is a piece that I found near a 1780's site and stamped Broom Head, a Sheffield maker in the 1700's. These makers were listed as ''master craftsmen''. I'm not saying that every British trade piece was top notch. But I am saying that the British made what the market demanded, or they lost the trade. And that the Brits were quite aware that quality was desired for the North American trade. And I'm sure that by the 1850's any advances in metallurgy, and market quality demands, would be very apparent


http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?15773-Broom-head-knifemaker


Eminent industrialist Charles Cammell worked at the Globe Works for Ibbotson Brothers between 1830 and 1837 before leaving to set up his own firm of Johnson, Cammell and Company with Thomas Johnson, this firm later became part of the Cammell Laird group. Another well known industrialist William Edgar Allen worked at the Globe Works as a young man before setting up the Edgar Allen and Company steelworks in 1867. The Globe Works received considerable damage during industrial unrest between employers and unions in 1843 when a bomb was planted by two members of the Saw Grinders Union.[4] In 1852 John Walters moved his business from the city centre to the Globe Works, his factory made table knives, spring knives, steel and tools and specialised in making Bowie knifes for the American market. Between 1865 and 1910 the Works were occupied by Unwin & Rodgers.[5] The Works later became an all-purpose factory and warehouse. The entrance to the factories surrounding the courtyard was under an enormous archway to the right and below the portculis of the original house. This was originally built to allow horses and carts/carriages into the cobbled courtyard. The upstairs packing rooms and office had to be accessed by an outside staircase.

 

[halbschaf]

Thanks a lot for all these interesting answers. I am extremely astonished, especially regarding the hardeness, which had differed so often. Seems as if we have continuous quality since around 50 years.

 

[300Six]

Thank you for the very informative post upnorth I gather you reside in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. I wonder if that knife could be tested for hardness etc without damaging it? Would answer a lot of questions here. I can easily understand British supplying of colonials in Prince Rupert's Land and Upper and Lower Canada (now all become Canada) but did they also supply the USA?
The moment I see a Sheffield stamp I have no doubts that it represents state of the art from whatever era it came from. Makers were zealous about their name and quality and wouldn't have stamped anything that was second best.

 

[Charlie_K]

Upnorth-

I'm showing my ignorance here. I thought the Hudson Bay knife was a concept by Condor. But now that I see it's a historical concept, I think I wanna get one now.

 

[Charlie_K]

Okay so it's been a long while since this thread saw any action, but a question has come up and I didn't feel like starting a new thread.

With the early bowie knives, was it more common for the tang to be visible and feature bolted/pinned slab scales like the W49 bowie? Or did they have stick tangs hidden by a wrap around handle like the Ontario SP10?

 

[Blackie Scantling]

1850's Bowies weren't used hard. They were fighting knives used as a backup by the small fraction of people who used them at all. The vast majority were owned by the "ninjas" of the day.

No. Knives, whether trade knives, Bowies or a big butcher knife in a handmade sheath were as important a survival tool and weapon as a gun. Most all pics of early Rangers and frontiersmen showed them posing with a large knife in their belts. A rare tintype of Bigfoot Wallace, an early Ranger, scout and contract Indian killer shows a large knife in his belt. The fact that it wasn't a fancy hilt parade sword for show sheds light on how chillingly important they were. A knife was as important as a gun, ax and bible in the desperate frontier days.

 

[Blackie Scantling]

As far as how hard or soft knives were depended on the blademaker and what he used. Usually it was a piece of scrap such as a file or wagon spring. Ben Lilly, a famous 1800's lion and bear hunter in the Rockies made his knives from whatever suitable material he came across in various shape and form from single edge Bowies to double edge spearpoints. His only requirement is they be hard and not bend. He said he'd rather have a knife break before it would bend. He quenched them in mountain lion or bear grease which was probably the only oil he had access to.

 

[Ebbtide]

Okay so it's been a long while since this thread saw any action, but a question has come up and I didn't feel like starting a new thread.

With the early bowie knives, was it more common for the tang to be visible and feature bolted/pinned slab scales like the W49 bowie? Or did they have stick tangs hidden by a wrap around handle?

Anyone with an interest in old bowie knives should pick up a copy of Flayderman's book "The Bowie Knife, Unsheathing an American Legend.

To answer your question and paint with a wide brush…
Neither.
Stick tangs with a framed handle and the scales pinned to that.

The frames were predominately made with nickel silver.
This style of handle has the appearance of a full tang and is plenty strong.


Here's a tutorial on framed handles
http://beknivessite2.homestead.com/cokebottlehandle.html


Again, that is painting with a wide brush.
Stick tangs and stag were common and some full tangs too.

 

[marcinek]

No. Knives, whether trade knives, Bowies or a big butcher knife in a handmade sheath were as important a survival tool and weapon as a gun. Most all pics of early Rangers and frontiersmen showed them posing with a large knife in their belts. A rare tintype of Bigfoot Wallace, an early Ranger, scout and contract Indian killer shows a large knife in his belt. The fact that it wasn't a fancy hilt parade sword for show sheds light on how chillingly important they were. A knife was as important as a gun, ax and bible in the desperate frontier days.

No. You are oversimplifying the history of knives in America. Sure, the butcher knives frontiersmen used were used hard and often. Bowie knives were completely different animals and were backup weapons for the few who actually used them.

That said, early Bowies were well built knives. Fancy-schmancy, even.

 

[marcinek]

Okay so it's been a long while since this thread saw any action, but a question has come up and I didn't feel like starting a new thread.

With the early bowie knives, was it more common for the tang to be visible and feature bolted/pinned slab scales like the W49 bowie? Or did they have stick tangs hidden by a wrap around handle?

Yes. Three of the leading candidates for the sandbar knife: the Searles Bowies, the Schively Bowies, and the Forrest knife (my pick) have pretty different handle constructions. On top of that, there was probably less of an idea what the sandbar knife looked like back then, and people were going nuts for Bowie knives...had to have one. So almost an infinite variety of styles were built.

In fact, a "standard" Bowie didn't exist until Thorpe made one up in 1948 and the movie The Iron Mistress came out in 1952.