Steel Question

[dutch_0311]

I know I am probably the hundreth person to ask about this, but can someone fill me in on the Sandvik 13C26 steel that is found on many of Kershaw's knives? What quality steel is it and what can it be compared to??

 

[SPXTrader]

Straight from the Sandvik site! Clicky!

Now for us normal folks, 13C26 has been an excellent performer for Kershaw. Lord knows I've got a house full of them. It will take a very sharp edge and will hold it for a good bit. They can be thinned down a little without any problems. It has good resistence to rust. Kershaw and Sandvik have a very good working relationship (which is going to cost me a lot next year), and I have been extremely pleased with the performance I've gotten from their blades.

 

[Razorsharp244]

I know I am probably the hundreth person to ask about this, but can someone fill me in on the Sandvik 13C26 steel that is found on many of Kershaw's knives? What quality steel is it and what can it be compared to??

Here is a better link for you, it presents all the Sandvik grades. I wrote it myself with help from our R&D responsible for knife and razorblade steels.

http://www.smt.sandvik.com/hardeningguide

Regards
//Jerker

 

[3Guardsmen]

It has good resistence to rust.

That's funny, because that's what I'd always thought too, but according to Sandvik's site, that doesn't appear to be the case. From Sandvik's site:
http://www.smt.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/internet/s001664.nsf/index/d3ff1ed53a717849c1257439005650df
-"13C26 is recommended for surgical applications, razor applications, whittling or as a surface coated EDC (Every Day Carry knife)."
-"an excellent choice for demanding cutting applications where the moderate corrosion resistance of 13C26 is not a key issue or if the blade is coated for corrosion protection"


Perhaps Razorsharp244 can give us some insight into this?

Regards,
3G

 

[Razorsharp244]

That's funny, because that's what I'd always thought too, but according to Sandvik's site, that doesn't appear to be the case. From Sandvik's site:
http://www.smt.sandvik.com/sandvik/0140/internet/s001664.nsf/index/d3ff1ed53a717849c1257439005650df
-"13C26 is recommended for surgical applications, razor applications, whittling or as a surface coated EDC (Every Day Carry knife)."
-"an excellent choice for demanding cutting applications where the moderate corrosion resistance of 13C26 is not a key issue or if the blade is coated for corrosion protection"


Perhaps Razorsharp244 can give us some insight into this?

Regards,
3G

Hi 3Guardsmen, I'll explain what I mean.

In most cases, with a really good heat treatment including a quick efficient quench (most important for corrosion resistance) the 13C26 has good enough corrosion resistance, it surely beats D2 for instance. For Blade forum members in general the corrosion resistance is probably more than enough, but forum members and the average user are on different levels when it comes to knife care. I have a bunch of 13C26 knives and have never seen any corrosion on thoose but I do take good care of them.

As a company we are always conservative in our recommendations, wether it's for maximum hardness recipies or going all out and recommending any steel for any application. BUT, please view our guide as a .....guide. Just remember we always make recommendations on the safer side. Recommending coated EDC is maybe not the most exciting thing but please realize that not all knife makers/heat treaters can keep Kershaws quality level.

Overall I think that 13C26 is borderline good enough for what we (Sandvik) call "normal use" which is hunting, EDC and outdoors activities. There can be issues, especially in humid areas of the world. 12C27 however fits this role (normal use) perfectly, so that is the reason for our recommendation.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[mmmotorcycle]

it is nice to have you aboard here Jerker! Welcome, and thank you for the hands on knowledge! :thumbup:

 

[Thomas W]

Thought I would add, along with being a smarty pants, Jerker has great taste in wines.

 

[Razorsharp244]

Thought I would add, along with being a smarty pants, Jerker has great taste in wines.

Haha Thomas, blind luck has stood me by when my knowledge let me down.

Guys, I'll be around the forums, mainly this one, on a daily basis now for a few weeks if you have any questions for me. i'll do what I can to answer them.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Thomas W]

Ahh our own resident Sandvik expert to answer all your questions. Thanks Jerker.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Thank you so much, Jerker, for the info and the guide! It's good to have you here!

As far as the corrosion resistance of 13C26 goes, I take good care of my knives, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. However, I guess I'll now have an excuse to buy more of DLC coated versions! What do you think, Thomas (you planned it that way, didn't you)?

Regards,
3G

 

[reholli]

Thanks, Jerker...good to have you here! :thumbup:

Ray

 

[ROBB]

Would a 440A or AUS8A be a good compairsion with the 13C26 being a little less corrosion resistance and maybe better edge holding? Either way I think the heat treatment is 1/2 of how the steel comes out.

 

[commodorewheeler]

From my experience using it, I would say that it is fairly comparable to 440C. I've actually gotten a little better edge holding out of the 13C26 than the 440C, I would say.

 

[3Guardsmen]

From my experience using it, I would say that it is fairly comparable to 440C. I've actually gotten a little better edge holding out of the 13C26 than the 440C, I would say.

If you don't mind me asking, Commodorewheeler, of which knife/knives (manufacturer?) in 440C do you speak? The reason I ask is that I've had different results with different companies' 440C (eg. Benchmade vs. Boker vs. Entrek). Thank you in advance.

Regards,
3G

 

[Magnum22]

12C27 is my favorite stainless steel. there's no way i can't love a direct descendant of 12C27 intended for razor blades.

 

[Any Cal.]

Nice to have some firsthand knowledge. I just got my first 13c26, a new Shallot. So far I am very happy with it. Before this I had a 12c27 in a scandi grind.

You mentioned the corrosion resistance, Jerker, of 12c27. What is it that this steel loses in comparison with the 13c26?

I do not know the hardness of either knife I own, but both seem to form a burr easily, and take a very fine edge. To me, the 12c27 seemed to lose it's fine edge quickly when used, but seemed very tough and corrosion resistant.

The 13c26 seems to take a fine edge as well, and keep it considerably longer, though it is somewhat more difficult to sharpen.

Are these observations in line with what I should expect from each steel type?

Is there a 'best' way to sharpen these steels? Diamond stone/crock sticks, light/heavy pressure?

Thanks so much for your presence here and your sharing of your knowledge and experience.

 

[Razorsharp244]

Hi Any Cal.
I'll answer to the best of my ability.

You mentioned the corrosion resistance, Jerker, of 12c27. What is it that this steel loses in comparison with the 13c26?

Increasing corrosion resistance will normally decrease the edge properties of the steel. That is why having too much corrosion resistance will indirectly decrease hardness and by doing that also edge stability and wear resistance.

The facts: 13C26 have 0.68% C and 12C27 have 0.6% C. 12C27 also have slightly higher chromium content which "steals" som extra carbon into carbides instead of contributing to hardness. So with a -95F deep freeze and the lowest recomended temper 13C26 gets to HRC62 and 12C27 to HRC61. Lower cryo temp will not benefit 12C27 at all while there is a point left to gain for 13C26 since more carbon is in the steel matrix.

I do not know the hardness of either knife I own, but both seem to form a burr easily, and take a very fine edge. To me, the 12c27 seemed to lose it's fine edge quickly when used, but seemed very tough and corrosion resistant.

The 13c26 seems to take a fine edge as well, and keep it considerably longer, though it is somewhat more difficult to sharpen.

Are these observations in line with what I should expect from each steel type?

13C27 and 12C27 (and 12C27M and 7C27Mo2) have almost identical microstructures. The only difference is the carbide density. For 13C26 it's highest followed by 12C27, 12C27M and 7C27Mo2 in that order. I personally believe (and have experienced) that grinding these grades at similar hardnesses are very similar. Your description sounds however more like a difference in hardness of the blades. Softer blades burrs more easily and loses it's edge faster.

Here is what I think. You mentioned Scandi grind, so I suspect you own a Puukko and you're comparing it with a Kershaw folder. Puukkos normally has lower hardness/higher toughness than Kershaw folders. Which makes sense on a fixed vs folder in my opinion. Most Puukkos are 57-58 HRC and Kershaw folders in 13C26 are shooting for the 60:s if I remember correctly.

Is there a 'best' way to sharpen these steels? Diamond stone/crock sticks, light/heavy pressure?

I'm not really an expert here, I use a Sharpmaker-type sharpening kit myself and it works like a charm for me. There is a medium grit ceramic and a fine grit cerimic pair of rods in there.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Razorsharp244]

If you don't mind me asking, Commodorewheeler, of which knife/knives (manufacturer?) in 440C do you speak? The reason I ask is that I've had different results with different companies' 440C (eg. Benchmade vs. Boker vs. Entrek). Thank you in advance.

Regards,
3G

I want to adress this also. 440C, just as 440A, 420HC, 420, D2 and others, are standard grades. It really does not say anything about the quality of the 440C. The quality of 440C is decided by the quality of the mill you get it from (as well as heat treatment of course). The composition and purity tolerances and for standardized grades are quite wide and will differ between different suppliers.

Example: 440C composition tolerances. I used this site for reference. http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1024
Carbon 0.95-1.2%
Chrome 16-18%

This means that a steel with 0.95% C and 18% Cr will be just as much a 440C as a steel with 1.2% C and 16% Cr.

Add differences in purity levels to this and you quickly see that two 440C not always are the same.

So, the knife made of 440C from different suppliers in different parts of the world will act differently and not be directly comparable.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Razorsharp244]

From my experience using it, I would say that it is fairly comparable to 440C. I've actually gotten a little better edge holding out of the 13C26 than the 440C, I would say.

Hi Commodorewheeler,
I'll throw in my opinion on this one as well.

It depends on what you cut. If you cut sandpaper (CATRA) I would expect 440C to win because of the large carbide structure. If the hardest thing you cut is the wood and the occational horn I would personally expect 13C26 to last longer.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Razorsharp244]

Would a 440A or AUS8A be a good compairsion with the 13C26 being a little less corrosion resistance and maybe better edge holding? Either way I think the heat treatment is 1/2 of how the steel comes out.

Hi ROBB,
440A is quite far from the hardness levels you can get with 13C26. 440A contains almost the same nominal values of carbon as 13C26 but much higher Chromium which will decrease the hardness by bonding carbon. 13C26 has much better edge holding in my opinion.

AUS8 is a coarse (primary-) carbide grade. 13C26 is a fine carbide steel so they are fundamentally different and have different ups and downs. For cutting cardboard or sand paper for example when a coarse structure is beneficial I'd expect AUS8 to win. WHen cutting just about anything else I'd expect 13C26 to win. I have put together a text about this in our Hardening guide, look it up if you are interested in our opinion on steel types.

www.smt.sandvik.com/hardeningguide

Regards
//Jerker