Steel recommendation - finest edge with simple HT

Natlek said:
I make lot of knife from 1.2519 steel .Crazy sharp and can take very , very thin edge .........63-64 Hrc
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That's good to know, seems like this could be a good option for me and it is reasonably priced so I won't be quite so sad when I make mistakes. After making several like this I'll be after a tough steel for my next projects
 
Justin Schmidt said:
Unless you're going to send each file out for a chemical analysis to know the EXACT composition. Dont do this
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So you need to have every junk steel sent out for chem. analyze before use every time? That just sound silly... I doubt you ever work with Nicholson file before make that statement?

I have a part time job heat treating high alloy steel for knife makers, and numbers of knife makers who work with with me have made over hundreds of knife from old Nicholson file and they are all works great if the HT are right.

Just heat treat it like 1% carbon, 1460F with 8-10 minutes soak and quench in fast oil.

I always made sample test when working with any type of steel. All Nicholson file harden to 60+HRC with 450F tempering with fine grain and hold a good edge. Please give me good reason why I shouldn't work with it?
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Natlek said:
Old Nicholson Black Diamond file have far more carbon then 1% . .. .
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The carbon content may vary, the black Diamond act very similar to W2 while the flat smooth is more like 1095 speaking about hamon activity. Nevertheless they all will harden pretty much the same with similar heat treat temperature, soak time.
 
shqxk said:
So you need to have every junk steel sent out for chem. analyze before use every time? That just sound silly... I doubt you ever work with Nicholson file before make that statement?

I have a part time job heat treating high alloy steel for knife makers, and numbers of knife makers who work with with me have made over hundreds of knife from old Nicholson file and they are all works great if the HT are right.

Just heat treat it like 1% carbon, 1460F with 8-10 minutes soak and quench in fast oil.

I always made sample test when working with any type of steel. All Nicholson file harden to 60+HRC with 450F tempering with fine grain and hold a good edge. Please give me good reason why I shouldn't work with it?
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If you want to optimize your work and your heat treat then yes you should know what's in it. How can you know how to heat treat something if you dont know what's in it?
If it's good enough for you then keep doing what you do. But that's not something I'd put my name on
 
Justin Schmidt said:
If you want to optimize your work and your heat treat then yes you should know what's in it. How can you know how to heat treat something if you dont know what's in it?
If it's good enough for you then keep doing what you do. But that's not something I'd put my name on
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As I stated, I have had doing heat treat for many kind of carbon steel and when it come to hardening, hamon activity, grain and hardness will not lie... Most of Nicholson file are definitely high carbon steel like 1095, W1 or W2. (Actually file are mostly made of W1 type steel just like leaf spring mostly made of 5160)

The reason I like Nicholson file is not because it cheap but compare to Japanese SK4 and SK5 (equivalence to 1084 and 1095) which are only two type of plain carbon steel available in sheet here. A knife made of Nicholson file will hold an edge noticeable better.

I optimize the performance by using multi grain refinement process and temperature control equipment on both kiln and gas oven, low temp salt baht for tempering/quenching.

You're right about a knife maker should know exactly of what stuff he working with. That is also the reason why I'm pretty confident in Nicholson file since I have tested it numerous times. It can be a value source for good quality high carbon steel which can be easily made into a knife for newbie.

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Before this gets too far into a known vs unknown steel thread, I will say that if you have tested a consistent quality source of steel, like a Nicholson file, and have data from edge testing and hardness testing … it is a known steel. I would guess that 99% of knifemakers do not know the analysis of the steel the make a knife from (even though it was bought from a knife supplier as 10XX or whatever). We have seen several threads over the years about steel from a supplier that didn't turn out to be what it was sold as. That doesn't make the steel good or bad, it just means you need to do testing and develop your HT processes to get the max from the steel.

Shqxk has the right method for any steel that you will use … find a consistent source, develop a good HT protocol, do grain refinement cycles, and follow up the hardening and tempering with testing.

BTW, this is a good reason to buy steel by the sheet with specs, or buy bars from one batch and test it out. Even the same steel type may vary between different suppliers and batches.
 
shqxk said:
The carbon content may vary, the black Diamond act very similar to W2 while the flat smooth is more like 1095 speaking about hamon activity. Nevertheless they all will harden pretty much the same with similar heat treat temperature, soak time.
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On one site from USA steel supplier they sell old Nicholson file ...they are 70HRC ..I will try to find that site tonight .
 
Thanks again for all the replies, I am going to go with 07 steel and see how it goes (first project will be friction folders - I have been working on a UK legal edc knife design for myself). It's fairly inexpensive so I will make my mistakes with this and maybe do some destructive testing to see how well it really holds and edge.

I will post again with my first attempts for some constructive criticism maybe.
 
Nothing wrong with O7, but you asked about the sharpest edge and simplest HT. O7 is very tough, but not the finest edge. It isn't nearly as hard as the steels recommended for a user edge. Rc58-59 is its working hardness for most knife tasks in O7. HT is pretty basic, but a soak of around 10 minutes is wise.

Personally, I would do it in Hitachi Blue. Very tough, gets screaming sharp, and can be used at Rc63. Pretty cheap for a bar big enough to make several knives.
 
O7 and 1.2519 can do 63 Rc just fine.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Nothing wrong with O7, but you asked about the sharpest edge and simplest HT. O7 is very tough, but not the finest edge. It isn't nearly as hard as the steels recommended for a user edge. Rc58-59 is its working hardness for most knife tasks in O7. HT is pretty basic, but a soak of around 10 minutes is wise.

Personally, I would do it in Hitachi Blue. Very tough, gets screaming sharp, and can be used at Rc63. Pretty cheap for a bar big enough to make several knives.
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Ah and this is where the confusion comes in, people saying totally opposite things lol. I do think you are right about blue steel, it is certainly great. The price difference is considerable though at between 3x - 5x the cost which is a lot when I am expecting to get through many blades before I am happy with the outcome (well to be honest I am hoping to nail it first time but this seems naively optimistic). I think I will order the O7 as I can get around 4 feet (1,200mm) of the stuff for £24 ($30.87), which compared to blue steel from Dictum which is €52.90 ($58.38) for just 20 inches (500mm). I will temper it low to maintain a high RC and experiment a little, have you tried O7 at a harder RC?

There is another supplier for Takefu blue steel which I am not familiar with as I always see Hitachi attached to blue/white steel, but they are much cheaper at £22.50 for 15" (400mm). So I will play around with O7 and if it turns out to be below expectations I haven't lost much and I can use it for something else and i'll be more confident spending more for premium steel after trialling with the cheaper stuff.
 
I must be remembering the charts wrong. I had thought O7 was chippy at higher hardness.
 
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