Steel recommendation for hard use EDC

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Brian.Evans

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So, I'm putting together a blade for daily duty carry for our fire and medics. Medics will carry small of the back and fire will likely carry on belt or in a turnout gear pocket.

I just need to pick a steel. There are a lot of thread on outdoors steel types, but this is kind of a specialized blade.

I'm still in design mode but Blade length is around 3" and I'd like to run 5/32ish stock thickness. I'm hesitant to run 3/16" stock on something so small.

This design is going to be an EDC for duty, so it could potentially encounter some weird stuff. Prying door jambs, cutting seat belts, cutting rope, light prying in general, opening skittles packages, possibly as a last ditch knife/get out alive kind of thing if a fire guy got cut off from his tools. That kind of stuff. I suppose a self defense tool too, but really if it comes to that a pointy stick or sharpened butter knife would work just fine. Steel selection plays no part in that stuff.

Ease of sharpening does not play a factor as most of these guys couldn't get a knife sharp enough to get out of a paper bag.

I'd really like stainless or semi stainless. These guys take care of their other gear, but might not take as good of care of their knives.

So, I'll answer any questions I can. All suggestions welcome.
 
Elmax, very tough, good edge retention, and extremely stainless. M390 is almost the same, just less toughness, and better edge retention.
 
Elmax or M390. I think the M390 is the greatest !!! It grinds well; is easy to sharpen; and stays sharp for a long, long time cutting weird stuff. My son in law has a M390 blade in a folder. He manages a heavy duty equipment repair shop. He uses it to cut everything and anything. He is amazed how well it works and how long it stays sharp with the rough treatment he gives it. Frank
 
I'm still in design mode but Blade length is around 3" and I'd like to run 5/32ish stock thickness. I'm hesitant to run 3/16" stock on something so small.

Normally I preach "thin is in", but in your design I would consider 3/16" stock with a full-flat or mild full convex grind... although 5/32" may well be plenty strong.

3V, ELMAX or CTS XHP are the way to go!

My choices as well. 3V is somewhat tougher, the other two are more corrosion-resistant. All three hold an edge very well and are great for hard-working knives.
 
I trie to post this earlier, but apparently it didn't go.

James, on a knife like this I would normally use 3/32" stock, as I hate chunky knives, but I think this particular knife needs to be thick since there is a possibility it will get abused.

I was thinking M390 or 3V. How rust resistant is 3V? Also, the only knives I've seen in 3V have been bigger choppers. I want to be able to really abuse this thing and have it come out ok. Like drive it through a 2x4 with a sledge. Or maybe not that harsh, but close.

I do have to keep in mind the sales side of it too. Even if they are amazing steel, if they're too expensive, no one will buy them. Police/fire/EMS can be very cheap bastards. :) Myself included.
 
I agree with you on making this sort of tool thicker than a "normal" knife. :thumbup:

3V isn't "stainless", but it is more corrosion-resistant than it gets credit for. It doesn't really rust much at all, but it can develop tiny pits on the surface if not kept clean. A good crisp finish and etching ("passivating") the steel help prevent that. It is similar to D2 in that regard.

3V is my personal favorite for a knife (large or small) that can take a lot of abuse, and it's what I carry and use everyday. At 58Rc, the toughness is outstanding and the edge-holding is very good. I've never tried M390 but it sounds very interesting.
 
I have been impressed by CTS XHP for edge holding, but M390 has not made it to my EDC rotation yet. If cost does turn out to be an issue, I would suggest 440C or D2. I've got knives made from both, and they take abuse quite well.

Just as a suggestion...what about making a 2 blade knife with one for cutting and one a purpose built tool for prying? Prying with a knife always adds the risk of injury to the risk of breaking a blade, and a thinner knife blade will cut better. Also, there are lots of knives available that are suitable for Fire/EMT work, but I've never seen a small folding pry bar...maybe something with a sturdy chisel edge on the tip and one side like a Razel but not as sharp
 
I have some 1/8" D2 we are going to test for ergos and carry setups before going on to a more expensive and thicker steel.

The idea for this knife is less of a cutting implement and more of a prybar that happens to be able to cut as well. Everyone already carries a knife to use for cutting. I'd like to imagine this design used for something similar to the Strider DB.

Just so everyone knows, this design is way outside my comfort zone. I carry an Opinel No. 6, a Case peanut, or an Imperial easy open jack for my EDC pocket knives. Making a thick sharpened prybar goes agains everything I usually go for in a knife. But, I guess this is a pretty specialized design/usage. I'm not big at all into the super steel monster folders. In fact, the only modern folder I have is a Kershaw Leek, which is very thin for a modern AO knife.
 
KalEl said:
looking forward to seeing your design!
Click to expand...
I second this ! & as for a steel recommendation
For a " sharpened prybar " how about S7 in a
Thickness of 5/32ths or 3/16ths? Or what about
A2 or good ole 1095 have you considered any of
These ? Any thoughts on them ? I know their aren't
Super steels but they are pretty tough in there own
Right !

Frank
 
From Crucible's page:
It is designed to provide maximum resistance to breakage and chipping in a high wear-resistance steel. It offers impact resistance greater than A2, D2, Cru-Wear, or CPM M4, approaching the levels provided by S7 and other shock resistant grades. CPM 3V is intended to be used at 58/60 HRC in applications where chronic breakage and chipping are encountered in other tool steels, but where the wear properties of a high alloy steel are required.

The wear and toughness properties of CPM 3V make it an excellent alternative to shock-resistant steels such as S7 or A9, where they typically wear out too quickly, but where grades such as A2, CruWear, or CPM M4 tend to fail by breaking or chipping. CPM 3V offers the highest impact toughness of any tool steel with this range of wear resistance.

Also this:
IMAGE_1000001233.GIF


You can see that 3V approaches S7 in shock, but has a much higher wear resistance.


I have to rework the design a bit. It looked good on paper, but the tip was too fragile once I cut it out. I'm going to grab some mild steel today and play with profiles.

The initial prototype will be cut from D2. Like I said, I usually use O1 and A2 for everything and consider A2 a pretty tough steel. If Crucible's graph is true, 3V is going to blow me away.
 
I flip flopped back and forth over whether I wanted to show the design or not. I'm still not sure it's done yet, but here's what I have so far.

I like somewhere between 100% and 90% for the full size carry. I think 68% would make a sweet little necker.

Backup%2520Carry%2520Scan.jpg
 
truly glad you put this thread out there, i have had the same kind of hard use steel in mind for some time, and have came up with 3V myself, but this helps confirm it. nice little design there as well. one question on the pommel... is that pointed on purpose for smashing windows or for asthetics?
 
RR, it's for a window breaker, but it feels kind of gimmicky, to be honest. I'll do the prototype with it, but I may take it out of the final project. Also, I'm thinking of making the hole an oxygen wrench instead of a round hole. Not sure on that either.
 
Window breakers look cool, but in 99.9% of all fire/rescue situations they have 100 tools that will break a window easier than the end of a knife.

For a real use tool for fire/police/medic/rescue simple is best. It needs to cut very well, be tough, not rust, and be hand friendly.

BTW, I have found that bright orange or black G-10 handles are very popular. Black canvas Micarta does well ,too.
 
i'm in total agreement with mr. smth above. I love the orange really stands out and just screams "i'm here to help" for some reason, and i agree with both of you on the window breaker. as a guy who gets to see a lot of other guys with a lot of different knives on a regular basis, one thing that has stood out for me is that knives with pointy pommels on them often cause more discomfort for the user, by getting accidentally poked than is worth them being carried, which ultimately leads to them not being used, and not being recommended (more importantly i assume, if you want to sell more in the future). just for example, the V-42 is one of the coolest looking daggers out there, and everyone i know who carries one (mostly for tradition) ends up taping up the end of it after getting jabbed in the rib or hip by it... just my 2c
 
Yeah, that's why I have never carried a window punch. I figure the fire guys will be there if I need to bust a window. Like I said, it's pretty gimmicky. I'm not going to include it, and didn't on the prototypes we are testing.

It's kind of embarrassing actually, as it makes me look like I'm new to EMS, which I'm not, and a little bit mall-ninja-ish, which I'm definitely not.

I had planned on giving a choice of orange or black scales. I'm planning on using the G-10 peel ply, unless someone gives me another option that is better. I'm all for rounded scales on a knife that will be used and in hand a lot (like a skinner), but I honestly think thin flat scales will be better for a mostly carried, less often used knife.
 
i'm in the same boat with the rounded handle, but i agree for a "mostly carried" as you say. i can't wait to see the finished product... post pics :)
 
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