Steel snobs, knife sharpening and such

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Silverdagger

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I'm old to knifes, but new to paying attention to the steel. I just bought a Spyderco Native, and it is awesome steel. I've semi retired my Buck 501 which has inferior 420HC steel. I've got a boker carbon blade, actually 3 and a yellow mid sized boker stockman in stainless, which I think is probably 420 or 420HC. It is sharp as a razor. I have countless knives of all types of carbon and low end steel as well as a little AUS8 and Sv 30 or whatever they call it on the Spyderco.

My question is this. Who needs super steel? I mean really. Don't most of you sharpen your knives immediately or every day they see hard use? Isn't it a rare person who cuts so much they do need super steel? I know there are a few who cut rope all day and such, but I can't think of ever needing super steel, mainly because if I use a knife a lot on a day, I sharpen it. That said, I don't use any of my 40+- knives heavily every day.

What do you think? If you like sharpening knives do you even need the latest greatest high dollar steel?
 
I Am a steel snob, but I was thinking the same thing one day. I have been eyeing that kershaw blur in walmart for ever. I don't like combo edges either, but this knife was calling my name. I could not leave wallmart with out it one day. So on the way I when't with my first kershaw, and a 440a slab of steel grinded in tanto, and a combo edge. Seems everything I would hate. BUT I LOVE THIS KNIFE!!!! I'm for real this thing WILL hold an edge and get sharp fast. I do sharpen a lot, so I do have to agree with you. It does no hold as long as s30v but I don't really need to. I carry this blur as much as my mini manix for now. He he until I find a new toy. O yeah the combo edge really made a comeback in my eyes. They really chew through cardboard, and you also have a straight part for other stuff. Also I love the tanto too, I like using the bent part for starting a cut. Run to wallmart and pick this gem up if you havent all ready. It was everything I thought I hated, BUT I LOVE IT NOW.
 
Silverdagger said:
Who needs super steel?
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Assuming you mean "super" to be actual performance and not fad, then every knife user should want a better steel because it allows a better knife. Specifically a wider scope and higher cutting performance.

-Cliff
 
so-lo, love to hear about you being satisfied with your Blur.

FYI, we now make a plain edged Blur with S30V and a stone washed finish. Nice cutter to be sure.
 
(Raises hand) That would be me. The guy who does apartment renovation/repair for a living. I have yet to find a steel that can hold an edge for an entire day of my harder work. Things like cutting through construction adhesive, plywood, low density particle board, caulking between concrete block walls and ceramic tiles, between the tiles and the steel tubs, etc. are edge killers of a high order. ZDP-189 will usually make it to lunch, but yeah, I'm still looking for something better.
 
Try a high wear HSS, or the extensions to carbides; maxamet or similar from carpenter.

-Cliff
 
FYI, we now make a plain edged Blur with S30V and a stone washed finish. Nice cutter to be sure.
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Yes, a good cutting knife to be sure. I have the Blur in both 440A and S30V, and it is nice. It really comes into it's own in S30V. It's a much better knife, though only the steel is different. The cost is a bit higher, but not too much to put it out of reach. One of the best bang for the buck out there. I like it because the comfortable grips help me hang onto it with my arthritis.

Cliff, I sure wish it would be as easy as going and just "getting" Maxamet, T15, YXR7, T1, etc., Etc. No offense but I've never seen the stuff, and don't know anyone working with it. I consider my ZDP 189 and S90V blades a step foreward and feel lucky to have them. Joe
 
yablanowitz said:
(Raises hand) That would be me. The guy who does apartment renovation/repair for a living. I have yet to find a steel that can hold an edge for an entire day of my harder work. Things like cutting through construction adhesive, plywood, low density particle board, caulking between concrete block walls and ceramic tiles, between the tiles and the steel tubs, etc. are edge killers of a high order. ZDP-189 will usually make it to lunch, but yeah, I'm still looking for something better.
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it could also matter how steep your sharpening your blade (at lesat from my understanding), the steeper the more it can out up with

-matt
 
Silverdagger said:
My question is this. Who needs super steel? I mean really. Don't most of you sharpen your knives immediately or every day they see hard use? Isn't it a rare person who cuts so much they do need super steel? I know there are a few who cut rope all day and such, but I can't think of ever needing super steel, mainly because if I use a knife a lot on a day, I sharpen it. That said, I don't use any of my 40+- knives heavily every day.

What do you think? If you like sharpening knives do you even need the latest greatest high dollar steel?
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Most people who ask this question don't need to go off and find other steels; the question is being asked because they're not doing the right things to bring out the best properties in the ostensibly "better" steel, and so they don't see why they should keeping pursuing this. It's my job to change their outlook :)

Ultimately, a knife is about separating matter from one piece into two. Since that is the function, it's always puzzled me that people's ultimate judgement of steel is based solely on edge holding. You buy a knife to cut things. Why not judge it on whether it cuts better? If a knife with steel A and one with steel B both hold an edge for the same amount of time, but the knife with steel B outcuts the knife with steel A 4-to-1, isn't the fact that edge holding is similar unimportant compared to the huge cutting advantage? If I can slice open a clampack like butter with the steel B knife, but with steel A it's a hand-threatening chore, wasn't steel B worth pursuing?

Backing up a bit, why would a knife with steel B outcut a knife with steel A? Well, perhaps because the knife with steel A is sharpened at 20 degrees per side, but because steel B is stronger, tougher, and more stable, I can sharpen steel B at 10 degrees per side. Actually, on many materials, an edge angle difference that big will yield more than a 4-to-1 cutting advantage.

Bring it all together, many people will buy better and better steels, and then just slap on the same old 20-degree (or 15 degree, or whatever) per side edge that they do with every other knife they have. So what advantage do they see for their expensive "super steel"? Well, with the exact same angle on everything, certainly not a cutting advantage, which I hope to convince you is the advantage by which steels and knives should be significantly judged. All they will see is some marginal difference in edge holding ... just like you! Am I right in thinking that you've moved to a better steel and sharpened at the same old angle?

That brings me to my rule: For most cutting uses, the most important criterion by which a steel should be judged "better" is whether or not its properties allow it to have a more advantageous blade and edge geometry. I realize that there are certainly cases where things like rust resistance are more important, of course, but for most of us here, I think the rule holds. And that raises a corollary: If you're not sharpening the better steels to lower angles to take advantage of their properties and experience better performance, there's little reason for you to continue to pay the higher price that sometimes comes with better steels and heat treats.

Joe
 
There are plenty of users who are afraid to sharpen their knives. They buy more expensive steels to get more working life between professional sharpenings. Then they pay so much for their knives they get reluctant to actually use them. Getting a convenient sharpening system and getting comfortable using it should really be the first investment in money and effort for a knife user, not super steel.

Once you get a good sharpening system you should reprofile your knives to 10 degrees per side and see if they will stand up at that geometry. If your current steel works at that angle you probably don't need a steel upgrade. For example your carbon Boker carbon steel blade and your AUS-8 and 420HC will probably be OK. You may actually find that some super steels don't do as well at a low angle.
 
Silverdagger said:
My question is this. Who needs super steel? I mean really. Don't most of you sharpen your knives immediately or every day they see hard use? Isn't it a rare person who cuts so much they do need super steel? I know there are a few who cut rope all day and such, but I can't think of ever needing super steel, mainly because if I use a knife a lot on a day, I sharpen it. That said, I don't use any of my 40+- knives heavily every day.

What do you think? If you like sharpening knives do you even need the latest greatest high dollar steel?
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Perhaps we need to differentiate between "need" and "appreciate".

I have EDC'ed a blade of some sort for about 40 years. Part of the reason to EDC is the need to cut. My SAK or Buck Cadet handled the job perfectly well for years. They still do today on occaision. But I do appreciate the capabilities of some of my newer knives with their "better" steels. It's not so much what the do on a regular basis. It's what I know they can do if I really need it. And every once in a while, I have run into a situation where I needed to do a lot of hard cutting without having the opportunity to touch up the blade.

I should be say that by "better" I mean what most folks here would call mid-range steels. ATS34, VG10, 440C. Steels that might be considered a step above 420HC or SAK steel. I do not have any of the "super steels" such as M2, D2, or S30V.

Do I need a "better" steel? Evidently not. I didn't have any for years. Do I appreciate having it? Yes, I do.
 
knarfeng said:
Do I need a "better" steel? Evidently not. I didn't have any for years. Do I appreciate having it? Yes, I do.
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Would you appreciate it even more if you sharpened it with lower-angle edge bevels to see what the better steel can really do? Indubitably!


:) :) Actually, for all I know you're doing that already. Just saw an opportunity to belabor my point, and took it! No need to struggle to appreciate the better steel, once your knife does in one cut what used to take 6 :)
 
For me part of the issue is technology. It’s like having a more powerful computer, a brighter flashlight, and why I didn’t just go and get a cheap camera to take pictures. Lower class products would work, but I enjoy having the best (or close to it), pushing the boundaries of what can be done. One of the reasons I am looking forward to getting my hands on some ZDP-189 (I’m waiting for the CF Caly 3) is so I can take the steel to the limits of its abilities. This steel is specifically good at holding a really thin edge, and that’s what I intend to do with it.
On the side of general EDC, I think it’s an advantage if the knife will hold an edge under regular use for a week instead of a few days, a month would be better, and if some day they make steel so wear resistant that you only need to sharpen it a few times in your life I’ll be first in line to get some.
 
What Joe T said is part of my problem. I'm sure if I put a cold chisel edge bevel on my work knives, the edge would hold a lot longer. Probably forever, since I'd likely quit using them. I like my knives sharp :D . Thirty degrees inclusive is max for a microbevel on most of my knives, I keep the primary bevel around 20 deg. inclusive on most. The ZDP-189 Delica is between 15 and 17 inclusive.

I want a super steel that will take a ten degree bevel and hold its edge while cutting through concrete blocks :D

I'm not gonna hold my breath, though.
 
Silverdagger said:
What do you think? If you like sharpening knives do you even need the latest greatest high dollar steel?
Click to expand...


id say you lose to much in the flexibility/toughness department when going "highend", i like "soft" ss like 12c27, thats really "the shit" imo, tried to break one yesterday, but it takes lots of abuse, sometimes less is more. its all about compromises, i know how to sharpen so i really dont need the latest super steel. however it could be cool sometimes to have "the best" edgeholding steel, to this point i think microtechs s30v holds a very good edge a very long time, but i wouldnt even dream of abusing it, like i do with my moras etc.
 
I failed Steel Snob 101 , anything 440C or better with a good heat treat and good edge geometry pleases me .

Chris
 
Tomas W- I think that might really but up my alley. I do like the ergos on the blur and s30v would really set this knife off. My next knife is going to be that zt 301 or 302, I am saving for it now.

Joe Talmadge- I see your point, I do agree, but for most people we don't NEED the newest steel, we just like knowing what it can do. Yes I like super steels because I can bring them down to crazy low angles and they hold. So anyways what I'm trying to say is "Hi my name is Randy, and I am a steel snob" but I was not for years and I got by, and also learned how to sharpen a knife, and all knids of methods to do so.
 
Wait five years and the super steel becomes cheaper. Its a wonderful thing to find 440C knives that are superbly heat treated with excellent handle materials for under $150. Or even A2, 01, etc.... In 2020 CPM3V will be considered a lesser steel than whats available at that time. At that point I will most likely try it out. As of right now, I can buy the same knives in A2, D2 or whatever for about half the price. YMMV
 
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