Steel...The Good, The Bad & the Worthless

I

indigodave

Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
2
OK...I've been a blade enthusiast for many years but am new to this website. Seeing that I know have a community of fellow bladesman to talk with I have a few good questions that previously went unanswered.
What is the best grade steel for knives being used for self-protection or general use?
What do the following (blade) steel designations mean:420 HC & ATS-34?
 
You are going to get a lot of different answers to this one. Some of it also depends on the application. You will need a different steel on a big chopper than you will on a small pocketknife.

The best ones around these days for general use (not chopping) are S30V, D2, and BG-42 for stainless (D2 is not true stainless, but close). Other stainless steels that work pretty well are VG-10, 154CM, ATS-34, 440C, and AUS8. There is usually a tradeoff, the ones that hold an edge the best are also more difficult to sharpen.

420HC isn't that great for edgeholding, but Buck does a decent job on the heat treat. It is usually found in lower cost knives.

If you prefer carbon steels, you will get very good performance from A2 and M2, and 1095 works well too. You just have to take a little better care of the knife. Most carbon steels sharpen easily and hold a good edge, and are tougher than the typical stainless.

A caveat to all this is that performance is highly dependent on heat treat. A poorly heat treated S30V will be worse than a well heat treated 420HC. Blade grind and edge profile have a profound effect on how well the knife actually cuts. I stay away from knives with a thick edge bevel; they may be able to take some abuse, but they require a lot of force to cut. Compare a poor grind (like that found on the cheap truck stop made-in-China $5 knives) to a good grind (inexpensive versions can be found on an Opinel or Victorinox); the thinner grind will cut significantly better.

To answer your question, 420HC is a relatively low-carbon stainless. It is easy to work for the manufacturer, cheap, and easy to sharpen (in most cases). ATS-34 has a lot more carbon, plus some other alloying elements, and costs more. It is more difficult to work, but still reasonable. Just a few years ago it was the darling of the knife world. It is essentially equivalent to 154CM.
 
indigodave said:
OK...I've been a blade enthusiast for many years but am new to this website. Seeing that I know have a community of fellow bladesman to talk with I have a few good questions that previously went unanswered.
What is the best grade steel for knives being used for self-protection or general use?
What do the following (blade) steel designations mean:420 HC & ATS-34?
Click to expand...


GOOD: CPM-3V, S30V, BG-42, A2, D2, O-1, 1095, 5160, 52100, 154CM, ATS-34, ATS-55, S60V, S90V, L6, M2, INFI, 6150, CARBON V, N960, AUS-10

BAD: 420, "Surgical Stainless"

WORTHLESS: "400 series stainless"

420HC- 420 High Carbon, the only maker who makes decent 420HC is Buck

ATS-34- good steel made by Hitachi I believe, I think it was originally a ball-bearing steel, or used in turbines.
 
Lazarus Long said:
GOOD: CPM-3V, S30V, BG-42, A2, D2, O-1, 1095, 5160, 52100, 154CM, ATS-34, ATS-55, S60V, S90V, L6, M2, INFI, 6150, CARBON V, N960, AUS-10

BAD: 420, "Surgical Stainless"

WORTHLESS: "400 series stainless"

420HC- 420 High Carbon, the only maker who makes decent 420HC is Buck

ATS-34- good steel made by Hitachi I believe, I think it was originally a ball-bearing steel, or used in turbines.
Click to expand...
FYI, ATS-34 was Hitachi's take on 154CM, which is a ball bearing steel.
 
Lazarus Long said:
GOOD: CPM-3V, S30V, BG-42, A2, D2, O-1, 1095, 5160, 52100, 154CM, ATS-34, ATS-55, S60V, S90V, L6, M2, INFI, 6150, CARBON V, N960, AUS-10

BAD: 420, "Surgical Stainless"

WORTHLESS: "400 series stainless"

420HC- 420 High Carbon, the only maker who makes decent 420HC is Buck

ATS-34- good steel made by Hitachi I believe, I think it was originally a ball-bearing steel, or used in turbines.
Click to expand...
Add VG-10 and AUS112 (a bit rare, but used in some CRKT knives) to the "Good" list.

If you go to www.bladeforums.com mainpage and look at the FAQs, there'll be a good, although slightly outdated list of different blade steels and their qualities.
 
"GOOD: CPM-3V, S30V, BG-42, A2, D2, O-1, 1095, 5160, 52100, 154CM, ATS-34, ATS-55, S60V, S90V, L6, M2, INFI, 6150, CARBON V, N960, AUS-10

BAD: 420, "Surgical Stainless"

WORTHLESS: "400 series stainless"

420HC- 420 High Carbon, the only maker who makes decent 420HC is Buck

ATS-34- good steel made by Hitachi I believe, I think it was originally a ball-bearing steel, or used in turbines."



That's a load of horsesh*t. Early Benchmade and Cold Steel made use of "400 series" stainless - these aren't worthless. Cliff tested a 420 blade and it didn't do half bad. Where's 440A -B and C - very widely used, these are 400 series stainless too by the way.

Check out the Steel FAQ. Heat treating is key.
 
I think the point is that when something is touted as "400 series stainless" most likely it's going to be junk. 440C might be "400 series stainless", but surely they'd advertise it as 440C, right? Why add to ambiguity when there's nothing to hide? Only when it's junk do they have to try and pass it off as something it's not by using buzz words like "surgical stainless". Or "Rostfrei" on a knife made in China. :rolleyes:
 
My Kershaw is 420HC.

And couple of my newer Gerber's are in the 400 series class.

All junk i am to understand by this.

And to think the steel on my LB5 was premium when bought new 20 years ago, now its junk steel, i see.

So in these opinions, these newer steels should outlast my junk knives easily with an edge, i will see about this in due time.

WR
 
Can't the best quality of steel be easily ruined by the work done to it such as grinding it to shape or heating it to forge without then hardening/tempering it propperly.
And can't a cheaper grade of steel be made " worthy " by heating, quenching, and tempering.
In other words , isn't it the finished blade that's more important than the "numbers" on the bar stock.
I make knives just for fun, but when I hardnen a piece of steel it can be pretty easily broken. If it's then tempered to a desired "softness" , where does this leave it in relation to the beginning " numbers " ?
I , myself , don't know . But I'm sure someone here does.
Mike
 
e3ck said:
This might help :D

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html
Click to expand...
Cool link. Something about ATS34:
ATS-34, a Hitachi product, is concidered to be the ultimate, all around knife steel. It is the Japanese version of 154 CM and, comparing the alloy content, these two steels are interchangeable.
154 CM was developed by Crucible Metals as a high temperature alloy for use in fan-jet engines.

Also, with the exception of 440C, I would not really consider any of the other 400 series stainlesses to be "good steel". I think Buck is foolish to use 420HC in nearly everything they make, Kershaw and 440A aren't too bad, but edge holding is poor, and anyone using 420J2 or below (Gerber) is just pitiful.
 
mcswood said:
Can't the best quality of steel be easily ruined by the work done to it such as grinding it to shape or heating it to forge without then hardening/tempering it propperly.
And can't a cheaper grade of steel be made " worthy " by heating, quenching, and tempering.
In other words , isn't it the finished blade that's more important than the "numbers" on the bar stock.
I make knives just for fun, but when I hardnen a piece of steel it can be pretty easily broken. If it's then tempered to a desired "softness" , where does this leave it in relation to the beginning " numbers " ?
I , myself , don't know . But I'm sure someone here does.
Mike
Click to expand...
That is true. A bad piece of steel with a great heat treat can be better than a good piece of steel with a bad heat treat.

Something to consider though is the fact that the low end knife companies use bad steel, and heat treat in HUGE batches, while high end companies use better steels and heat treat in smaller batches, or even one at a time.
 
Well, more enlightment, thanks guys.

I guess, i have a bit of learning to do, and can let go of the "If its thick and rusts on sight, its a decent pocket knife type of thinking"
(Uncle henery made me think like this hehe)

Hmmm, now to replace some of my knives i guess lol.

WR
 
If the blade holds an edge while doing what you ask of it for an extended period ( without chipping ) , then it's a good finish product .
If the blade dulls quickly or "spurs" when sharpening , then it's junk ( in it's present form at least ).
In my modest collection I have from meaningfull junk ( presents ) to valued dust collecters ( sadly no presents ). To me , they're all worthy of having no matter what the numbers were on their barstock.
I have a few prized older knives that the makers probably didn't know the "numbers" to. And they probably wouldn't have cared.

I know I don't.
Mike
 
If you take care of you knives, meaning keeping them cleaned, sharpened, and lubricated, I don't think it matters what type of steel it is. If it's the cheap stuff, you may be doing alot of sharpening, but that's up to the user. I've used a range of different steel types and if they're properly maintained, they've all performed well. I think it's a personal choice, but you do get what you pay for. The cheaper ones usually don't have the best handles, locking mechanisms, finishes, and materials. Then, if you really abuse your knives, it may be cheaper to buy a few of a favorite instead of one really expensive piece. If it's something your life may depend on, don't skimp. If it's an EDC that sees lots of abuse, save a few bucks.
 
averageguy said:
"GOOD: CPM-3V, S30V, BG-42, A2, D2, O-1, 1095, 5160, 52100, 154CM, ATS-34, ATS-55, S60V, S90V, L6, M2, INFI, 6150, CARBON V, N960, AUS-10

BAD: 420, "Surgical Stainless"

WORTHLESS: "400 series stainless"

420HC- 420 High Carbon, the only maker who makes decent 420HC is Buck

ATS-34- good steel made by Hitachi I believe, I think it was originally a ball-bearing steel, or used in turbines."



That's a load of horsesh*t. Early Benchmade and Cold Steel made use of "400 series" stainless - these aren't worthless. Cliff tested a 420 blade and it didn't do half bad. Where's 440A -B and C - very widely used, these are 400 series stainless too by the way.

Check out the Steel FAQ. Heat treating is key.
Click to expand...


I think you read me wrong, 440A,B, and C are good steels, I was referring to knives marked "400 series stainless" not made out of 420HC or the 440 series.
Like you said, heat treating is the key, and that is why Bucks are the only 420HC knives worth a crap (because of a good man named Paul Bos) Note: I've had a Kershaw in 420HC before and its performance wasn't good or even average. For the record, most knives marked "400 series stainless" are probably crap. Why mark them that way except to disguise crappy steel? Why not mark them 440A, B, or C? When something is marked "400 series stainless" it is usually 420J2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how would the performance of a old Benchmade in "400 series stainless" compare to a newer one of ATS-34 or 154cm? Would the performance of an AUS-8 tanto outperform the "400 series stainless" tanto, if they were both made the same way? I think so. It is all in your point of view, if you have used good steels, than the others such as 440a or 420HC may be somewhat dissapointing. BTW, the steels marked "Bad" aren't really "Bad" they are mid-class. That's why there is the "Worthless" category. :D
 
"with the exception of 440C, I would not really consider any of the other 400 series stainlesses to be "good steel"."

Well many European manufacturers and Randall Knives would disagree with you.
 
Stormdrane said:
If you take care of you knives, meaning keeping them cleaned, sharpened, and lubricated, I don't think it matters what type of steel it is. <snip> I've used a range of different steel types and if they're properly maintained, they've all performed well.
Click to expand...

IME some of the cheaper knives in stainless steel don't perform well at all. I've had knives that didn't get sharp no matter what I did, and I've still got one that seems to lose it's edge when you look at it. Quite amazing stuff.

However, when you look at carbon steel, things are quite different. Even cheap carbon steels like 1085 or 1095 that were used a lot in slipjoints over here a few decades ago are pretty good. When it comes to carbon steel you can really buy almost any knife. The blade will in almost all cases do it's job, and do it well.

Hans
 
Habeas Corpus said:
IME some of the cheaper knives in stainless steel don't perform well at all. I've had knives that didn't get sharp no matter what I did, and I've still got one that seems to lose it's edge when you look at it.
Click to expand...
I have seen the same thing, generally the lower end stainless often sees the lowest end heat treatment.

-Cliff
 
averageguy said:
"with the exception of 440C, I would not really consider any of the other 400 series stainlesses to be "good steel"."

Well many European manufacturers and Randall Knives would disagree with you.
Click to expand...
Well, I haven't had much experience with 440B, so I shouldn't really include it, but it only has a bit more carbon than 440A. I can't imagine it is that much better.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top