Steel toughness?

M

MilliePop

Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
83
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WnPDi5jV1U

Starting at about 8:30 of this video by Andrew Jordan, he really starts to scrape and hack the heck outa the edge of the knife he's forging to test his heat treat. I had no idea it was possible to forge a knife of that quality. My knives at home dent on the aluminum sink. So you can see how impressed I would have been by the strength and toughness of the Damascus that it didn't chip or dent.

Now my question is...can you forge a knife out of a basic steel like 1084 or 5160 and expect to get a edge of that quality, or would I have to get some fancy steel like Damascus?
 
I believe you could forge either 1084 or 5160 to do exactly what he does. One of the first things I noticed was that the blade was unfinished, meaning I don't belive the final edge had been put on. It appeared he was scaping and whacking away with a flat edge roughly the thickness of a dime. I don't think the knife would have fared so well with a "zero" edge. Still impressive though.

Fred
 
Any properly hardened and tempered blade made of decent steel should be able to survive that easily.

I will probably get lynched on this forum for saying this, but Damascus capability is generally the lesser of it's parts minus weld zone quality. Damascus looks great, but in most cases it is not an improvement in performance over its component parts. It looks great, and I like making it, my customers love it. It allows me to make the steel beautiful, then make a beautiful knife out of the beautiful steel. If I want to make something that will just be a practical high performance cutter I make it out of a single straight carbon steel.
Milliepop, how are you doing your heat treat? and what steel are you using?

-Page
 
You can forge or stock remove a blade out of 1084,put a shaving edge onit,hack your way thru a 2 X 4 and still have a sharp edge with no chipping or rolling.If it does then your heat treat isn't quite right.
Stan
 
In my opinion one of the most misunderstood terms in cutlery is "simple steel".... simple doesn't mean "beginner", although it's usually a good steel for beginners. Simple means without a lot of other materials besides carbon and iron.
 
I have not clicked the link as I prefer to stick to one internet site at a time so this pertains to this forum discussion:

Strength: The ability to resist plastic deformation
Toughness: Most often applied to impact toughness, exhibited by the ability to withstand sudden loading without brittle failure.
Abrasion Resistance: The ability to withstand wearing away, can be exhibited in hardness or a combination of hard particles in softer materials.
Ductility: The ability to plastically deform before brittle type failure, often associated with tensile type deformation.
Flex: A term to describe elastic deformation in which the steel will return to its original shape upon removal of the load. i.e. the strain is directly proportional to the stress applied.
Bend: A term to describe plastic deformation in which the steel remains deformed upon removal of the load. i.e. the strain is no longer proportional to the stress applied and exceeds it. It is wise not to fall victim to the confusion between flex and bend.

These and many more come into play in how a blade behaves. Cross section and thickness cannot be ignored in these properties (except, abrasion resistance) as it increases some while decreasing others. Proper use of these properties can help in making a knife do what you want, improper use if these terms can help in making people believe what you want.

In order to avoid total misconceptions about damascus we need to abandon the idea that it is some special and unique material unto itself. It is steel, that is all, nothing more nothing less, its only difference is that you are dealing with two steels, possibly with different properties at the same time. If like 15n20 and I like 1095, for me to say that “damascus” is inferior to my pet steel totally ignores the fact that “damascus” is process not a product, and that process could include one or both of my pet steels. For me to say that it surpasses them I am now obligated to explain why. If I call the couple of combinations of steel I have used, inferior, I need to justify applying that assessment to a process that has literally infinite combinations and possibilities. Within those possibilities is also my ability to forge weld, since poorly welded steel will be just as inferior as any other aspect done poorly in the making of a knife.
 
I will probably get lynched on this forum for saying this, but Damascus capability is generally the lesser of it's parts minus weld zone quality. Damascus looks great, but in most cases it is not an improvement in performance over its component parts.
Click to expand...

I thought I read that somewhere, and it makes common sense.

Milliepop, how are you doing your heat treat? and what steel are you using?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the misconception but I'm still only an aspiring bladesmith. I was referring to knives I've bought.
 
MilliePop said:
Sorry for the misconception but I'm still only an aspiring bladesmith. I was referring to knives I've bought.
Click to expand...


:eek: sounds like you need to buy better blades!;)

or start making your own. Either way if your knives are as soft as you are implying they are kind of worthless as knives. Now is as good a time as any to start work on your first one.
ready to try? you have now begun the journey for real, you have realized that you have an interest in better blades than what you have in your hand

-Page
 
Last edited:
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I have not clicked the link as I prefer to stick to one internet site at a time so this pertains to this forum discussion:
Click to expand...

Kevin, I sent you this link months ago. You commented that allot of what he did was based upon true metallurgy but as with most traditional (passed down) smithing, some processes are done "because I was told to".


If you noticed, he hadn't yet ground an edge on that knife blank. Gouging up mild steel is something any blade should be able to do after proper heat treat.

Rick
 
sunshadow said:
Any properly hardened and tempered blade made of decent steel should be able to survive that easily.

I will probably get lynched on this forum for saying this, but Damascus capability is generally the lesser of it's parts minus weld zone quality. Damascus looks great, but in most cases it is not an improvement in performance over its component parts. It looks great, and I like making it, my customers love it. It allows me to make the steel beautiful, then make a beautiful knife out of the beautiful steel. If I want to make something that will just be a practical high performance cutter I make it out of a single straight carbon steel.
Milliepop, how are you doing your heat treat? and what steel are you using?

-Page
Click to expand...

You wont get lynched, because your talking about your damascus:D
 
I like to heat treat my knives so they are able to

1. SHAVE A REVERSE MOHAWK ON BURT FOSTERS HEAD.

2. CHOP AN ALUMINUM SINK FULL OF 2x4 IN HALF OR WHATEVER. OH YES.... TWICE.

3. STILL SHAVE THAT LITTLE PIECE OF HAIR HE GROWS ON HIS CHIN OFF.

4. BEND IT 92.35231

5. SCOOP OUT A 45# WATERMELLON WITH IT

WHAT??????
 
Will Leavitt said:
In my opinion one of the most misunderstood terms in cutlery is "simple steel".... simple doesn't mean "beginner", although it's usually a good steel for beginners. Simple means without a lot of other materials besides carbon and iron.
Click to expand...

Will, this deserves repeating! Many times, less is more . Very well said, man!
 
Jason, does the blade have to heavy enough to knock Burt out before testing?? Or does he go along with your testing?? What if the blade warps on Burt's head??

Edge geometry needs to be considered.....seriously
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top