Steel types?

Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
219
Hi guys, I was trying to look up some info about the different steel types, but unfortunately Spyderco's chart didn't really help explain to me which types of steels were considered better than others. Can someone give me like a basic ranking of the different types of steels (440A, 420C, 440C, AUS6, AUS8, Sandvik 13C26, ATS34, VG10, S30V, etc?) from what is generally known as lowest quality to the most preimum quality? I only listed some of the types that I know of, but if you can also include some other popular types of steels commonly used, that would be great.

Thanks guys,

-Gary
 
hi Garypham, I would suggest looking at the FAQ's section of Blade Forum. The moderator gave an excellent description of the more popular steels (both stainless and non-stainless), one of the best you'll find. You can visit it at http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828 See section III, subsections A and B. Hope this helps, and remember that the heat treat is as important as the steel type. A good heat treat of lesser steel can make it perform better than a better steel with a poor heat treat. Good luck.
 
Latest one is actually here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828

Only problem with those steel composition tables is that they don't tell you much about how the steel will perform.

Gary, there's no such thing as a canonical list of "best to worst" steels. Many steels have various tradeoffs of strength vs toughness vs wear resistance -- and as you'll read in the FAQ, depending on the particular job you're doing, you might need more of one or the other. People can tell you that ATS-34 is better than 6A all they want, but 6A might do better in a big chopper (it's tougher) or in a dive knife (it's more rust resistant). You are better of learning what properties are important for which types of cuttings jobs, and then choosing the steel that maximizes those properties for the jobs you have in mind.

In the Steel FAQ, I did put together a rough canonical list of "best to worst" STAINLESS steels for general-purpose folders, but really, that's not the way to really understand it all.
 
The harder the steel, the harder it is to dull, but the harder it is to sharpen once it dulls, generally speaking. 420 is low quality steel IMO but it is easy to resharpen. Of the steels I am familiar with, I would rank them lower to higher like this, based on edge retention.....420 steels, AUS6, AUS8, 440A,440C, ATS34 and 154CM (which are almost the same steel with the latter being US made), S30V--then you can get into tool steels which are even tougher but not "stainless", like D2 and M2. M2 is the hardest steel used in the mass-produced market (Benchmade calls it HS for High speed steel). Tool steels were made to macine other steels, so they are very tough. M2 is especially prone to rust and is usually coated to protect it from oxidation.....I hope that helps...
 
Personally, I would look for something with 154CM, S30V, and ZDP-189 (being the best) for edge retention. Now, this is excluding the D2 and M2 because they aren't are offered as much. I'm pretty sure D2 falls in between S30V and ZDP-189. I am aiming for S30V for a great edge-holding every-day-carrier (EDC). The model I'm looking at is the Kershaw's (unreleased until February '06) K.O. Spec Bump with S30V. Take a look; it should be a great knife.

Also though, more importantly... what are you planning to do with this knife? If it's a chopper, go tougher. If you want excellent blade retention I would go with the first three blades mentioned. I'm not familiar with chopping blades. Probably something like 440C.

Hopefully helped,
-Cleary
 
FliGuyRyan said:
Personally, I would look for something with 154CM, S30V, and ZDP-189 (being the best) for edge retention. Now, this is excluding the D2 and M2 because they aren't are offered as much.

And ZDP is very common at the market, now?

OK, M2 was offered only by Benchmade in the last years, but they stopped using it in the last weeks.

D2 is used in the Kabar line aswell as in others.

If i try to remember all the comments about the steel types and what i felt and thought about them.... Of all them, mentioned above, D2 might take the toothiest edge of all and M2 the finest. Between this they all do behave very comparable with the tendency to loose a shaving edge in between a few days and keep something some ppl. call "working edge" for very long. They all are on the hard side bc of the high carbon content (1%+), so if it should be somehow tougher, fro example AUS8 might be a choice.

I have made the best sharpness experience with a cheap $20 slip joint with a simple .7% carbon steel blade so i wouldn´t point at the new ZDP hype train.

I think, you should choose the knife you like and that feels good in your hand. Keep in mind, what you want to do with it. Bladeshape is more important than steel grade.

If the knife feels great, i wouldn´t try to get you over to another knife because one has 154 CM and the other a different steel.
 
Here is a "techy" article about knife steels. It was designed for those who heat-treat steel but has some great info.

How a knife feels in your hand and how it feels when you cut with it really doesn't depend a lot on the type of steel in the blade, IMHO. I have some knives with "cheap steel" that I like just because they feel so good and work so well. The downside is that I have to give them a couple of passes on my Sharpmaker sharpener a little more frequently than some of the knive with the "expensive steel".

I really think the whole steel thing is overblown if you get a knife from a real knife maker (not the $5 flea market special).

Remember, the steel used in knives was probably not originally designed for knives but probably for something with much more extreme like jet engines. The linked list is a very long list of steels and you have to page down over half way to get to the 440 steel section.
http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

My knife hero wizard guru ninja master, Mr. Joe Talmadge, has an excellent posting which I think should be required reading (and you would have to pass a test) for anyone wanting to join Blade Forums. The "sharpening for performance" was the best info I ever got about knives from anyone. I have greatly improved many factory edges with little difficulty. This link was previously posted my Mr. Talmadge but it deserves repeating.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828
 
It has taken me quite a while to learn that knife design and blade geometry matters much more than blade-steel.

Another point that I have rather recently proved to myself is that hardness, in and of itself, does not equate to a superior steel.
Sometimes a blade-steel can be too hard and chip rather than deform--I hate chips in my blades!:mad:

I recently ordered a Cabela's Alaskan Guide Buck 110 with S30V and I plan to do some comparison testing against my standard Buck 110 with 420HC.
Since they are both share the same blade design and geometry, it will be a very fair comparison.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
FliGuyRyan said:
Personally, I would look for something with 154CM, S30V, and ZDP-189 (being the best) for edge retention.

Hopefully you won't feel picked on if I use this as an example of what I was saying... All three of these are fine steels, depending on what you're doing with the knife. These steels, for example, can work nicely in medium- and hard-duty folders. None are acceptable choices for a heavy-duty chopper. Great for one type of use, bad for another, all because of the properties the steel possesses. Gary never said he was only asking about folder steels. In a big chopper, 3V, Infi, 1084, 5160, and any number of other steels would blow them all away. Hell, even lowly 440A is tougher and would probably stand up to more.

Of course, you knew that already, since you finished with this:

Also though, more importantly... what are you planning to do with this knife? If it's a chopper, go tougher. If you want excellent blade retention I would go with the first three blades mentioned. I'm not familiar with chopping blades.

And that, I think, is the important point, what the knife is planned for. BTW, edge retention is dependent on the usage as well. Will 154-CM have better edge retention than 1084 in a big chopper? No, the 154-CM's edge will crack and chip away pretty quick. 154-CM has better wear resistance, but wear resistance is not the same thing as edge retention, especially if the job being done (e.g., chopping) is more dependent on strength and toughness than wear resistance!

Joe
 
Hi,
Another new guy trying to learn.

If blade geometry is more important, is there a general consensus of what is better for certain tasks...or is it personal preference?

Also, from reading as much as I can on this forum it seems some blade materials have a reputation for taking that sharp edge, while some wont.

Im personally looking into buying a higher quality folding knife for EDC soon and would like to know what metals can get that scary sharp edge and hold it...used for slicing only, no prying or chopping.
 
Hello, I just recently registered so I could post once in a while. This is a kind of test to see it works. In answer to the question of rating knife blade steels it has pretty much been covered already that the best steel for any particular knife depends on the application. I have written some articles on this subject in the past and they are on my website, which is new and not completely finished. www.seamountknifeworks.com. In any case it is a place to start..
 
Phil, I am happy to see you join the bladeforums. You name is of course quite familar from the frequent references Cliff made to your work. Welcome!
 
Thanks for the welcome, Now that I see that this works To answer the original question posted I will venture an opinion--- I think in MHO that for a stock removal blade 30V is the best all around blade steel going right now. It can be used for any application from a chopper to a scalpel by just adjusting the heat treating.

Phil
 
22HERTZ said:
Hi,
Another new guy trying to learn.

If blade geometry is more important, is there a general consensus of what is better for certain tasks...or is it personal preference?

Also, from reading as much as I can on this forum it seems some blade materials have a reputation for taking that sharp edge, while some wont.

Im personally looking into buying a higher quality folding knife for EDC soon and would like to know what metals can get that scary sharp edge and hold it...used for slicing only, no prying or chopping.

AllenC made a great point by bringing up edge geometry. But it's no quite as simple as that (you knew this wasn't going to be simple, right? :) ) Edge geometry is dependent on steel. So you can't just switch to talking about edge geometry, and forget talking about steel, heat treat, and application.

Here's an example. Let's use your example: you want a medium-duty EDC folder that's obscenely sharp. You can choose S30V at 59 Rc or ZDP-189 at 65 Rc. You often cut into hard materials that stress the edge. Now, ZDP-189 at 65 Rc has a very hard, strong edge, that will deform less when stressed. That means you can take edge thinner (so it performs better) relative to S30V, which is softer and weaker and as a result needs a thicker edge with more metal for support. In other words, it's the steel type and heat treat, matched to the application, that determines the best-performing edge geometry. Now if this were a hard-use folder, you might find (say) that the ZDP-189 kept chipping out so you'd need a thicker edge, and the S30V would keep a thinner edge because it's tougher. There, same two steels, but now because the application has changed, so can the edge geometry and the steel chosen.

And, it gets worse. Let's say your ZDP-189 knife holds up well at 12 degrees per side (a VERY higih-performance edge geometry, that would be suitable for cutting only). Cliff was the first I've seen who looked at even higher-performance edge geometries, and he found that steels with big chromium carbides (stainless steels like ZDP) don't like being taken much thinner than that, because the carbides start breaking out. But, you can take a simple steel like 1095, harden it up in the mid-sixties, and go even below 10 degrees. Now you're talking really serious performance, you'll blow all your friends away in cutting competitions -- provided your knifemaker heat-treated the steel right and you are using the knife for its intended application, which in this case is controlled cutting. If 12 degrees per side satisfies you, then ZDP will work fine and there's no reason to try the 1095, which will have to be custom-made for you by a good maker. If 15 degrees per side satisfies you, you can stick with S30V at a much lower price point. You see where I'm going here: steel, heat treat, and application are all incestuously related.

In short, don't think edge geometry is necessarily independent of the other factors. The thinner you take the edge, the more critical it is you have the right steel.

Last factor: there's more to blade geometry than just the edge geometry. If you're making a big chopper, a very thin blade with a full flat grind, driven into soft woods, will penetrate deeply and stick hopelessly. On those woods, you want a blade geometry that wedges out more. The thinner blade might work better on harder woods. Again, application matters.

Joe
 
Joe Talmadge said:
AllenC made a great point by bringing up edge geometry. But it's no quite as simple as that (you knew this wasn't going to be simple, right? :) ) Edge geometry is dependent on steel. So you can't just switch to talking about edge geometry, and forget talking about steel, heat treat, and application.

Here's an example. Let's use your example: you want a medium-duty EDC folder that's obscenely sharp. You can choose S30V at 59 Rc or ZDP-189 at 65 Rc. You often cut into hard materials that stress the edge. Now, ZDP-189 at 65 Rc has a very hard, strong edge, that will deform less when stressed. That means you can take edge thinner (so it performs better) relative to S30V, which is softer and weaker and as a result needs a thicker edge with more metal for support. In other words, it's the steel type and heat treat, matched to the application, that determines the best-performing edge geometry. Now if this were a hard-use folder, you might find (say) that the ZDP-189 kept chipping out so you'd need a thicker edge, and the S30V would keep a thinner edge because it's tougher. There, same two steels, but now because the application has changed, so can the edge geometry and the steel chosen.

And, it gets worse. Let's say your ZDP-189 knife holds up well at 12 degrees per side (a VERY higih-performance edge geometry, that would be suitable for cutting only). Cliff was the first I've seen who looked at even higher-performance edge geometries, and he found that steels with big chromium carbides (stainless steels like ZDP) don't like being taken much thinner than that, because the carbides start breaking out. But, you can take a simple steel like 1095, harden it up in the mid-sixties, and go even below 10 degrees. Now you're talking really serious performance, you'll blow all your friends away in cutting competitions -- provided your knifemaker heat-treated the steel right and you are using the knife for its intended application, which in this case is controlled cutting. If 12 degrees per side satisfies you, then ZDP will work fine and there's no reason to try the 1095, which will have to be custom-made for you by a good maker. If 15 degrees per side satisfies you, you can stick with S30V at a much lower price point. You see where I'm going here: steel, heat treat, and application are all incestuously related.

In short, don't think edge geometry is necessarily independent of the other factors. The thinner you take the edge, the more critical it is you have the right steel.

Last factor: there's more to blade geometry than just the edge geometry. If you're making a big chopper, a very thin blade with a full flat grind, driven into soft woods, will penetrate deeply and stick hopelessly. On those woods, you want a blade geometry that wedges out more. The thinner blade might work better on harder woods. Again, application matters.

Joe

Thankyou for taking the time to write that explaination. That helps tremendously.
 
Phil, you have an excellent website! I especially appreciate the way you explain the complicated subjects of knife design and fabrication, as well as steel properties, in easy-to-understand language. It is uncommon to find a writer who can do this.

Joe, likewise, your articles have also really helped me to understand knife steels.

Thanks a lot, to both of you! :thumbup:
 
Back
Top