Steels Used in Early 20th Century

OK I have purchased a range of vintage knives to try to answer some of the questions I previously stated and maybe a couple more such as when companies started using 440A instead of 420 and what hardness the early stainless knives were. And if Queen was indeed using 440C before switching to 440A. I have dated the knives using the tang stamps but maybe an expert might have a better/different idea of the year on some of these.

image1.jpegimage0.jpeg
Queen stainless - 1946-1948
image5.jpegimage4.jpeg
Queen steel 1949-1958. Stamp is not complete so perhaps this one is debatable.
image7.jpegimage6.jpeg
Queen steel 1958-1960
image24.jpegimage25.jpeg
Schrade stainless 1920s-1946
image9.jpegimage8.jpeg
Schrade stainless 1946-1973
 
image3.jpegimage2.jpeg
Schrade carbon 1946-1973
image23.jpegimage22.jpeg
Schrade stainless 1973-2004? Does the "razor blade stainless" date it any more narrowly?
image12.jpegimage11.jpeg
Stainless cutlery co (Camillus) 1924-1930s
image19.jpegimage18.jpeg
Camillus carbon 1916-1930s
image15.jpegimage14.jpeg
Camillus carbon 1930s-1940s
 
Here are some summarized findings from XRF readings. The Chromium content seems to be reading a bit high on the machine that I was using but I think we can at least differentiate between 420 and 440. Because XRF cannot do carbon we can't tell what is 440A, B, or C. Most of these are 440A but there are reports that Queen Steel was originally 440C before switching to 440A so hopefully we can do the carbon test in the future. There was a vanadium addition to the steel used by Queen in the 1958-1960 knife so it would be interesting to see if there was a change in carbon content then as well. The early Camillus (Stainless Cutlery Co) appears to be 420 which is somewhat disappointing because I thought those might be early 440. The early Schrade stainless knife I got is 440, however, and the lack of Molybdenum in the steel also confirms it as early 440A. Unfortunately the date of the tang stamp is a bit wide but ending in 1946 means that this was earlier than Queen and I have seen some claims that Queen was the first to use 440, but the steel existed back to around 1925-1927 it just wasn't advertised which knife companies were using it (and it wasn't even named 440 at that time). In terms of carbon steels I have seen some assume that Camillus was using their chrome-vanadium steel 0170-6C steel back to early days but they were still using simple carbon steel at least up until the date of the two knives that I tested. The ~0.12% chromium in the Camillus and Schrade knives is just normal residual levels and not an intentional addition. The Case knife is of course a chrome-vanadium steel, however.

440 vs 420 vintage knives.png
carbon steel vintage knives.png
 
Interesting article here. Page three column two specifically mentions Brearley's first melting of true stainless steel as occurring on Aug. 13. 1913.


The Schrade "Razor Blade Stainless" trademark was registered around 1965, but I'm pretty certain that was a sharpening process rather than a certain steel.

Eric
 
Yes the history with Brearley is pretty well covered. I have my own article on the subject as well. The introduction of 440A has basically no information but I have my sources on that at least on the steel side. The implementation in knives much less so.
 
I read that George Ibberson started using Firth's stainless steel (an early version of 420?) to make knives in 1914. it wasn't a big hit though as it wouldn't hold an edge. Schrade started marketing stainless knives in the early twenties (possibly sooner) but initially those knives developed the same reputation. I'm not sure what the composition on that steel was but I think what was more important at the time was to develop proper heat treating and tempering methods for those steels before they could start to gain traction in the cutlery industry.

Eric
 
Last edited:
Thank you for all the research! So with the broken blades you can test the carbon content?
 
I just noticed Thiers-Issard selling some knives and razors with an old stock of blades from the 1920s and 1930s, and for not outrageous prices. Only info I can find is that it was cast carbon steel produced by Jacob Holtzer. Might be an interesting data point
 
Last edited:
It may be productive to see if civil and criminal records could be mined for additional info. There were probably early litigation cases over supplied steel quality, structural failures, etc.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
It may be productive to see if civil and criminal records could be mined for additional info. There were probably early litigation cases over supplied steel quality, structural failures, etc.

n2s
Click to expand...
So far only one court case has shown up in my searches that is relevant at all, related to an early tool steel (1890s): But if you know a repository of such information online please link to it as that is not an area I know how to search for effectively.
 
Last edited:
Reviving a year old thread…

Went to my favorite 1830’s based working museum recently, and stopped in to see the blacksmith. He’s well read on period-correct smithing, but he was trying to forge a slip joint pocket knife (for S’s and G’s, probably). Would have probably been a rare activity, if one at all, for country smiths. Cutlers were already a thing… but hey… how many “not-knives” can you make before you get curious?

Anyway, he was talking about how little he knows of 1800’s knife steel compositions and I immediately thought of this thread. Larrin Larrin , have you or anyone else looked into the 1800’s? I haven’t bothered to google search yet, but I figured I’d come to a trust worthy source first.
 
EngrSorenson said:
Reviving a year old thread…

Went to my favorite 1830’s based working museum recently, and stopped in to see the blacksmith. He’s well read on period-correct smithing, but he was trying to forge a slip joint pocket knife (for S’s and G’s, probably). Would have probably been a rare activity, if one at all, for country smiths. Cutlers were already a thing… but hey… how many “not-knives” can you make before you get curious?

Anyway, he was talking about how little he knows of 1800’s knife steel compositions and I immediately thought of this thread. Larrin Larrin , have you or anyone else looked into the 1800’s? I haven’t bothered to google search yet, but I figured I’d come to a trust worthy source first.
Click to expand...
In the 1800s they were all simple carbon steels. Alloy steels weren’t in production until the end of the 1800s but didn’t get significant use in knives until the early 1900s. You can read more in The Story of Knife Steel.
 
Larrin said:
In the 1800s they were all simple carbon steels. Alloy steels weren’t in production until the end of the 1800s but didn’t get significant use in knives until the early 1900s. You can read more in The Story of Knife Steel.
Click to expand...
Sounds great- I almost bought a copy, but I wasn’t sure if there was analysis of the carbon content of the simple steels from that time period that were being used in pocket cutlery.

I’ll buy two copies, and donate the other to the museum blacksmith.
 
not2sharp said:
Have you seen this one?

n2s
Click to expand...
I remember in the 1980s the large oil field service company that I worked for did testing and analysis on metals and found many substandard and false represented products from overseas suppliers. At that time they had a list compiled that we used as a guide for purchasing products. By the early 1990s there were company officials who wanted that list removed. It was later revealed that they had stock in those foreign companies that were on the list. Go figure that!
 
It’s an old story. During the 19th century Britain’s government instructed its military to stop buying edge weapons from Germany because the products they were sending were way too soft and tended to deform while in use. Last year the US sentenced a senior metallurgist for faking test results on steels used to build nuclear submarines. It is hard for the average guy to tell one bar of steel from another so cheating is common.

During 2001, the jumbo jet that fell onto a Queen’s neighborhood was brought down by fake defective tail assembly bolts that had failed.

I remember a story from WWII, where the practice in India was for khukuri merchants to keep a bar of mild steel in their stall. They would invite buyers to try out the knives against the mild steel to demonstrate that the knife was made of properly heat treated steel.

n2s
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top