sterlize/disinfect blades?

[annr]

ANNR,

You can elinimate one of the three, the sharpening gear, by getting a knife with very high abrasion resistant steel, such a D-2, M-2, S30V, ZDP 189, etc. You should be able to carve quite a few reeds between sharpenings with this type of steel.

With or without germs in mind this is a good suggestion. Are there any that you would suggest? I saw one knife in D-2 that looked like a possibility. I'd be looking for a sheepsfoot or a wharnie, maybe hollow ground. I've seen some nice knives but often they are "too big". Ideal blade height is about 5/8" length 2.5"-3" with a smaller/medium sized handle. Don't do too much in the way of stabbing or skinning.

 

[HoB]

I would most definitely stay away from anything that disinfect by oxidization such as chlorine or peroxide or iodide. After all, we are talking about knives here and even stainless steels will have a hard time withstanding repeated treatment. Especially the edge will likely be affected quickly.
Which leaves disinfection by toxicity (which are potentially harmful to humans as well), like alcohol or formaldehyde. The latter used be the choice for disinfecting straight razor blades, so that would be my suggestion as well. I would suggest to rinse the blade after the bath in formaldehyde in some water though.

As for the steels (having the advantage of knowing, what you do with your knives ) I would think that high hardness M-2 (non stainless) or ZDP-189 would be a good choice, D2 or S30V not so much. Problem is though, that these steels aren't found of the shelf in the shape you need.

 

[annr]

I would suggest to rinse the blade after the bath in formaldehyde in some water though.

Where does one get formaldehye? Whole Foods? Isn't that the stinky stuff?

A realistic scenario would be managing contamination from one student to the next which would make me lean toward alcohol. Would I have to do a water rinse after swabbing with alcohol? The worst unintended consequence would be to get any residual disinfectant into the bore of the instrument.

The other factor is that the knives are not the only tools. As you may remember, lucky you, we have that metal plaque that is inserted between the blades, the mandrel that goes into the reed from below, the sharpening gear, a small billot, a hobby knife........ which in theory would need to be disinfected.

As for the steels (having the advantage of knowing, what you do with your knives ) I would think that high hardness M-2 (non stainless) or ZDP-189 would be a good choice, D2 or S30V not so much. Problem is though, that these steels aren't found of the shelf in the shape you need.

So how does one get one of those fancy steels--can the knives be customized?

 

[yoda4561]

The sterilizing of the knife is probably the least of her "worries" (I think germophobes are silly) Just washing the knife off with dish soap and water will make it as clean as the forks and spoons you use to eat with every day. Your fingers in contact with the reed as you make it are a far bigger problem as far as keeping it free from germs and other contamination. I don't know if it would be harmful at all to the reed (what with things like the finish on an instrument affecting its sound) but I would look to finding a way to disinfect the reed itself just before final delivery.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Do you really think that it would be safe to put alchohol on a reed? I was reading the bottle label and it says that it is harmful if swallowed.

Let the alcohol evaporate before you put the reed in your mouth. It evaporates fast, especially if you use 91%.

There wouldn't be enough to hurt you anyway; isopropyl alcohol is not very toxic, but you don't want to taste it.

 

[annr]

Your fingers in contact with the reed as you make it are a far bigger problem as far as keeping it free from germs and other contamination.

I make an obvious and concerted effort to use that hand sanitizer before and after handling the reeds. I should be equally concerned about getting their "crap" on myself. One kid did a science project where he went around the school swabbing things and then put his samples on petri dishes. The sample of his oboe grew more 'crap' than even his swabbing of the toilet.:barf:

I don't know if it would be harmful at all to the reed (what with things like the finish on an instrument affecting its sound) but I would look to finding a way to disinfect the reed itself just before final delivery.

A good suggestion. I once spoke to an MD about this and he said that the only thing that would really do the trick would the the aforementioned autoclave. There was a day when the teacher and the student would both test the reed and that seems far worse from the standpoint of passing germs. My policy is to do hand washing and deny someone when they have an upper respiratory infection or communicable disease.

 

[annr]

There wouldn't be enough to hurt you anyway; isopropyl alcohol is not very toxic, but you don't want to taste it.

So are you saying rinse it afterwards? Seems like it will just be soaked into the pores and never rinse out. I guess I have to be in the mood to try this.

As an aside: Once I tried food grade glycerin on a reed (to see if I could get it to retain more moisture) and the taste and aftertaste were shockingly!!! bad and long lasting. I got the stuff from a scientist from around here and after watching my reaction she was chicken to try it.

 

[darklight]

You can use ethanol that is safer than isopropanol.
Either way, your best shot is to use high or USP grade, like 99.8%(or even 99.9%), since it will leave very few residues when evaporates, altough it is very easy to find high grade isopropanol tha ethanol. You should be able to find the high grade in certain suppliers or stores.

Also, do gently sawb only, but use a generous amount of alcohol.
just let it dry well, and in the end you can rinse it with water and dry.

If you disinfect the stuff BEFORE sharpening you will have no cross contamination, so no need to disinfect the sharpener. Or, to peace of mind, just disinfect all the stuff once, adn the rest of the time you just need to identify WHAT can cross contaminate and disinfect if before it contaminates other stuff.
Other way, is just plain and simple, disinfect at arrival and disinfect after ready. Once in a while disinfect the knife too.


The procedures do not have to be huge, but have to be well managed to save time and money.
An autoclave is a good choice specially if you are dealing with respiratory problems, if you know that can sterilize the reeds there without damage! I don't know if they can stand heat (the reeds) but if they do, if you just put them in the oven for 30min MINIMUM (pre-heated) at 482 Fahrenheit ir is more than enought to do a great sterilization.

 

[annr]

You can use ethanol that is safer than isopropanol.
Either way, your best shot is to use high or USP grade, like 99.8%(or even 99.9%), since it will leave very few residues when evaporates, altough it is very easy to find high grade isopropanol tha ethanol. You should be able to find the high grade in certain suppliers or stores.

You gave me an idea: this student is a DVM working for a bio-tech co. She would likely be able to procure these items and she could use them at her discretion.

If you disinfect the stuff BEFORE sharpening you will have no cross contamination, so no need to disinfect the sharpener. Or, to peace of mind, just disinfect all the stuff once, adn the rest of the time you just need to identify WHAT can cross contaminate and disinfect if before it contaminates other stuff.
Other way, is just plain and simple, disinfect at arrival and disinfect after ready. Once in a while disinfect the knife too.

This is all helping me think about what is feasible and what is not, it's sounding like something might be better than nothing.

An autoclave is a good choice specially if you are dealing with respiratory problems, if you know that can sterilize the reeds there without damage! I don't know if they can stand heat (the reeds) but if they do, if you just put them in the oven for 30min MINIMUM (pre-heated) at 482 Fahrenheit ir is more than enought to do a great sterilization.

Yeah, no dice. The cane is tied onto a brass or nickel-silver tube that will melt. Maybe the next trend in my field will be the autoclavable reed component.

 

[STR]

Knives and blades that are hardened are sterilized everyday in the medical industry with little concern.

Althogh I personally would not do it to my carry knives I've put blades from the kitchen in boiling water before with no ill effects to edge keeping or anything else. I seriously doubt its going to affect it any if at all at the boiling point for three 3 minutes which is what most modern sterilization cyles run for in production sterilization equipment. Its far better than holding a lighter under it and burn marking it. For that matter most motorized grinding equipment used for sharpening will in all liklihood bring the temp of the edge up higher than the boiling water would if you stay in one spot too long.

Alcohol wiping is disinfecting the blade not sterilizing it. Disinfecting and sterilizing are two entirely different levels of infection control. Bleach will kill so soaking a stainless blade in bleach is a good cheap way of sterilizing also. 3 minutes is the average kill cycle recommended so that should do it.

Sterilizing the blade and then touching it to a dirty sharpening instrument is counter to what you just did. You need a sterilizeable sharpener that can be run or soak, or boil with the blade to prevent cross contamination. Running your finger down the edge will also cross contaminate it. Since sterilizing typically dulls the edge you will have a duller blade after its run through a commercial sterilizer folks. You'll need a little Smiths Diamond sharpener or some other India stone or something like used in the dental industry that is used to sharpen scalers and other instruments to prevent recontaminating the blade after the cycle.


STR

 

[65535]

I would go to a medical supplier and just buy bulk surgical scalpels, just bump up the cost a bit to compensate for the cost of disposable blades, or you could sterilize them in a small steam sterilization oven, and use each a few times. I would recommend boiling your Sharpening stone a few times, or sending it out to be put through a a cycle or two in an autoclave if it is autoclave rated, if you decide to boil it soak it in bleach for 48 hours then boil it again.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Electric.
Isopropyl evaporates very fast. We disinfect oral thermometers with it all the time. If there is a real concern, pure grain alcohol is available at any liquor store. If us electric players had to use the alcohol to disinfect our strings, I guess most would have dirty strings and a smile on their faces!
Soap & water is fine, but water takes a long time to dry.
Alcohol can be carried with you and evaporates much quicker.
Bill

 

[metalfof]

An alternative to an autoclave would be the humble pressure-cooker,but in practical terms absolute acohol(99.8 0/0 ethanol) would do;just wipe down between reeds.

 

[STR]

My wife corrected me a little. She said the average is 10 minutes for just boiling water in a pot. Its three minutes in commercial steilizers because there is both the correct temp and pressure which is required to kill spores.

Spores and TB are the hardest to kill. Aids dies in the air so its an easy kill. Hep. A,B,and C are harder to kill but not as bad as TB which can survive on counter tops for days or longer in the right conditions.

STR

 

[carrot]

Listerine instead of isopropyl alcohol, maybe?

 

[Tohatchi NM]

Unless you're dealing with something particularly nasty, I'd sharpen, wash well with soap and water, disinfect with a quick alcohol dip or swab, then shape the reed. After each reed, or when you change from one person to another, you can wash your hands and re-swab the blade with alcohol to disinfect for the next person. I pulled up a dental study where 80% ethanol+5% isopropanol kills bacteria, HIV, and hepatitis A-C. (I can't give you the link, but I can email it to anyone who wants it).

I'd go with the highest proof ethanol you can find. Make sure it's non-denatured. Pure grain alcohol will distill at 96% (192 proof). You can find 99 or 100% denatured ethanol, but residual benzene or other additives are usually present to get out the 4% water - not something you want in your mouth.

If you are dealing with something nasty that you really don't want to spread, I go with a short boiling time. You could boil the knife and ceramic stone, and it would kill most everything. Some diamond stones would be fine to boil, but I'm not sure about the DMT or other stones with major plastic pieces.

As far as particular blades, the ZDP Jess Horn springs to mind. It's a small blade, though out of production and not quite the shape you requested. The Grohmann wood carving knife also comes to mind - small, hollow-ground carbon steel blade that's very thin and sharp.

Middle of the page here:
http://www.grohmannknives.com/pages/whatsnew.html

Anyway, it looks like you can get some purpose-built reed knives that are extra hard. An unknown steel at high hardness will probably outperform a brand-name super steel pocket knife, where the blade is left a bit softer to avoid chipping, etc.

 

[annr]

Listerine instead of isopropyl alcohol, maybe?

Another good suggestion and one that I have seen tried on reeds. That's what you meant, right, on the reeds? I still wonder if something like that would be a feel-good or make-work step, maybe STR would know the answer with his dental background.

STR,
I was hoping that you would weigh in. I have to find out what some of tools and modalities are that you mentioned. Bear in mind that all of this high-level stuff is happening in a tiny room of a conservatory or music school with maybe a table or piano as a workspace.

 

[annr]

Unless you're dealing with something particularly nasty, I'd sharpen, wash well with soap and water, disinfect with a quick alcohol dip or swab, then shape the reed. After each reed, or when you change from one person to another, you can wash your hands and re-swab the blade with alcohol to disinfect for the next person. I pulled up a dental study where 80% ethanol+5% isopropanol kills bacteria, HIV, and hepatitis A-C. (I can't give you the link, but I can email it to anyone who wants it).

This sounds doable in an academic setting. I'd like that link via email if possible. Always glad for leads on knives.

 

[Ben Dover]

Ann,

I think if you check out Benchmade, Spyderco, and Kershaw, you could find a D-2, or S30V blade to meet your needs. Perhaps not exactly what you're looking for, but "close enough."

 

[annr]

Ben,
One of the BF guys let me try some of his Spydercos, etc. and the grip was just a bit too power oriented and the blade too high. The kind of handles that feel nice are the Boker folders with the 3 blades, however the blades are really too short in terms of height . The height matters because both thumbs rest on the spine while the blade is used.

At first I wondered if there was such a thing as a 'reed knife', or if it was a knife that just happened to be used for reeds. The more I have explored I realized that nearly every aspect of the knife serves a purpose.