Steven Dick Editorial in July Issue 2004

Ed Fowler

Ed Fowler

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Jul 21, 2001
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Steven Dick asked some very significant issues concerning knife competition in his Editorial in the July Issue of Tatical Knives. He suggests that stock removal knives should be allowed to compete, they were allowed in the competition at the last show in Eugene Oregon.
Do any who have read it have any thoughts?
 
If the cutting competitions are meant just as an exhibition of forged blades (without any claim of superiority) then I can understand excluding stock removal knives.

If, on the other hand, they are meant to demonstrate the superiority of the forged blade then I believe it should be open to stock removal as well and let the chips fall where they may.

Naturally, there are many more variables involved in such competitions (and the ultimate winning "formula") than just whether a blade is forged or not but it would certainly be interesting (and enjoyable) food for thought.
 
Ya know Bluesdude,
You said it perfectly.
I am an advocate of the forged blade and all it's trappings.But if it is an all out cutting competion, "Then let the games begin" and "Run what you brung"
Also just my opinion.
Randy
 
nifrand said:
Ya know Bluesdude,
You said it perfectly.
I am an advocate of the forged blade and all it's trappings.But if it is an all out cutting competion, "Then let the games begin" and "Run what you brung"
Also just my opinion.
Randy
Click to expand...

Thanks, Randy. As my late friend Rob Simonich used to say, "even a blind squirrel can find an acorn every now and then". :cool:
 
It depends on the cutting competition. If it is an ABS competition then I think it should remain for forged blades only. The ABS is dedicated to the preservation of the art and craft of the forged blade and therefore, stock removal knives do not belong in this organization's competitions. If however, the mandate of the competition is to come away with the best cutter, then the way the knife is made should be of no consequence.

Personally, I think it would be very interesting to have open cutting competitions. It would be educational for both knifemaker and non-knifemaker alike.

Also, I think that unless there is a distinct superiority of one style of knifemaking over the other, we are going to find that the most important aspect of winning cutting competions is in the knifemaking and cutting skills of the competitors, not in whether the knives are made by forging or by stock removal.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Also, I think that unless there is a distinct superiority of one style of knifemaking over the other, we are going to find that the most important aspect of winning cutting competions is in the knifemaking and cutting skills of the competitors, not in whether the knives are made by forging or by stock removal.
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I totally agree.., and the old saying...."It's not the arrow.., it's the Indian" comes to mind.

I also agree that ABS competitions should be exactly that....restricted to "Smiths"....
 
Hi,
I see nothing wrong with both open and closed competitions.
The ABS contests test the forged blade and the skills of the makers. It also helps foster design ideas and development. Far too often forged blades are just pretty things on the table.
Open competition using the same size and safety guidelines as the ABS but blades of any manufacture would allow folks to move in and across the lines and give us a basis for comparison. There the best techniques and hopefully blades will win. Time will tell if the best are forged or CNC or stockremoval or whatever. A performance blade is interesting for its own sake. Study of what makes it work can be crossed over to any maker's methodology.
The North Carolina Custom Knifemaker's Guild holds an annual cutting contest that is open to anyone who makes a knife with the proper dimensions. You may cast it out of cubic Zirconia if you can. Just has to be the right size and have a lanyard. I have seen damascus, forged carbon, 440c, and Chineese crowbar perform well.
enjoy, Ken
 
I disagree that Steven Dick brought up signficant issues. For the first time while reading his writing I thought he was muddleled with it. Seems to me he did not focus. He brought up several ideals. I would have liked to have talked with a bit before he wrote up his piece as I could have cleared some of it up right quick.
#1. The ABS sponsers and ABS cutting competetion. It is only for ABS members for several reasons. One we promote the art of the forged blade. Forged blades are our purpose. Insurance does not cover an non ABS member. Does this need to be anymore clear than these two reasons?
Steven Dick seemed to indicate that forged blades at the Reno show was pretty and not for cutting. He is saying that ABS members have no right to make knives that look good? Also remember anyone that holds a stamp can and has made knives that also preform to a certain level. Was he trying to say that some of those knives would not work?
#2. He wondered what the ABS was scared of by not letting non abs members particpate. See #1 above.

The Knifemakers guild will be having a cutting competetion this July at their show in Orlando. This is not an ABS event. It is open to anyone that made their own knife reguardless of how they did it. I will be setting it up. If it is open then I do not care how they made it. That is inmaterial on an open contest. Yall want to do it, go for it.

These contest for our members has been good. It has gotten members to thinking more about handle design, weights, thickness of blade, angles of grinds etc. The end result is that the customer will get a better knife out of the deal.

Yall got any questions trot them out. I will be happy to answer any thing you would like answered.
My hat is off to these guys who do enter and put up the quality of the blade good or bad in front of the public. It is one thing to set on the side lines but totally different to actually try it in public. Some of the contests have been a little goofy but did test a particular part of a knife design.
 
I agree with Mr. Fisk on the ABS cutting contests. A few years ago when things weren't quite as developed (the rules and guidlines for the contests), a stock removal maker or two were invited to attend and participate in our (ABS) cutting contest. At that time it, the events were mostly attended by ABS members and hench, it was an ABS contest, mostly. I never remembered Jerry asking any one if they had a current card before cutting, but he might have.
The show in Florida sounds like it ought to have a lot of good stock removal makers flocking there to show that they can produce a knife as good or better than forging. It would be a great dissappointment if that did not happen. If they haven't been practicing and checking the hardness of their blades, they will be dissappointed that they don't hold up. I was in several contests before I got the heat treat, edge geometry, weight, sharp, and technique down to start winning a few. And then you choke on a cut or miss the can completely. :)
If they all remember that it is a learning tool and to use it as such, it will be a good thing. It can force you to think about what you are doing when your making a blade. And the public will understand a little better that hand made knives can be awsome to behold.
 
Jerry: Thanks for the response! I would like to know what kind of insurance coverage the ABS members have through their membereship and in the competition? This is the first time I have heard abut it.
 
Ed
It is a policy that covers members particpating in offical cutting events of the ABS which is cutting competitions. Thats it.
 
Thanks Jerry: I feel the insurance coverage should be explained, I would appreciate more information such as the limits of liability and extension of the coverage. I was totally unaware that it existed. If we have coverage through the ABS, it may influence the private coverage I pay for individually through my local outfit.
 
I seem to get the impression from reading this thread and different articles in the magazines that there is bad blood between bladesmiths and stock removal makers. Please correct me if I'm wrong. We are all in this because we love knives and making them. I personally have the utmost respect for the bladesmith and how he or she can create such a masterpice from raw materials. I personally make knives by way of stock removal. This for me was the easiest way to break into knifemaking. I would eventually like to learn to forge blades but at this time it is not possible because of time, work and family. I would enjoy making them both ways. As far as cutting competetion,if it is a ABS cardholding event then it should only be open to those eligible. I attended The first Bill Moran Hammer-in last October and I must say it was one of the best times I ever had in my life. The seminars were very educating no matter how you make knives. Jerry Fisk's sharpening seminar taught me alot. John Fitch gave a grinding demo that was captivating. I Got my picture taken with Larry Harley and the legend himself Bill Moran. I just want to say I like all knives no matter who makes them. By the way Ed loved your book Knife Talk.
www.knifeshows.com/gossman ScoGo@aol.com
 
ExamonLyf said:
I also agree that ABS competitions should be exactly that....restricted to "Smiths"....
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Just because they aren't smith's doesn't mean they aren't good, Devin Thomas comes to mind, who has forged out more blades than anyone else alive, and isn't even a journeyman yet. Of course, these people might be a rarity, I don't know.
 
I haven't read the article by Steven, but regardless, agree with Jerry and Ray.

I competed in my first competition a couple of weeks ago. Didn't fare too well as my knife had some design flaws for some of the cutting chores. The edge held up perfectly, and would still shave after it was all over, but the blade was too light, the handle ergonomics incorect and I need to practice more cutting rope, cans and 2x4's like the ones in the comp. I already forged my new blade to compete with and made significant changes. To me that is what these competitions are all about. I test my knives at home, and have cut more lumber than I care to recall, but there is a difference between leaisurly chopping a small tree or scrap 2x4's and being timed on getting through a board. The knife I competed with has cut several 1 1/2" sapplings with one cut. Lots of cans, rope and various other items with great sucess. I knew the knife would hold up, but also knew I would probably get in it's way. The handle design suprised me, but it didn't take long to figure out what needed to be changed.

As for being pretty and being able to cut, I am proud to say mine was the only knife with gold inlays. It is my "around the farm" knife and has seen plenty of use, but like I said ...it is different when speed is needed and readjusting your grip costs you dearly.

It is all about learning more about knife performance, and not about proving "X" blade is better than "Y" blade.

Bottom line is there will be stock removal blades that perform as good as forged blades. We are not testing to failure, but are testing the useability of the knife under harsh conditions. It is an ABS sanctioned event, and therefore only forged blades are allowed and promoted. It follows the ABS mission, and really that explains it all.

It will be interesting to see how the stock removal makers do at the Open comp. in Florida. There is a bit of a learning curve, so unless there is a S.R. maker out there really testing his designs, my guess is oenof hte experienced ABS competitors takes it on experience if nothing else.

Jerry likes to present real world examples of the cutting tests such as "you might be in the field one day and a squirle steals your last walnut. You need to be able to cleanly cur the wanut from the squirle's mouth without harming the squirle because he is the last of his kind and is protected" (Just poking fun at Jerry)
 
I certainly think the ABS can hold its 'own' cutting contests, excluding non-members. I think that's the right of any association.

On the other hand, I think it would be in every maker's best interest to see competitions that were open to everyone at least occasionally. Most forgers I know of (and these are by reputation and communication via forums like this) truly WANT to make the best blade humanly possible. I think they'll do damn near anything to make a blade that cuts that last 1/100th of a % better than the last one, and if they saw a blade that was genuinely superior in a contest they'd all go home and figure out how to make one that was a little bit better than the one they saw.

Now chances are they'll do it with a hammer and a forge, but that's almost secondary. My impression of the ABS has always been that they are chasing the state-of-the-art in cutting tools, with their foot in tradition but an eye on improvement. I really think most of the members would want to see how their blades stack up to everyone-if only because they're going to digest what they see, go back to that forge and come back with a knife that'll out-do it next time.

And frankly, I think it'll be a cold day way down South before anyone can keep ahead of the ABS Mastersmiths for very long. They're too clever a group, and have too much collective experience, to not surpass any innovation that comes out.

Of course, my .02, and probably worth what you paid for it!

Larry
 
Larry, what you say makes a lot of sense, but as Jerry mentioned, the ABS' insurance policy would not cover non ABS competitors. Non members would have to sign waivers and even then the ABS could be held responsible for injuries if a court were to decide that the ABS was negligent in providing for a safe environment for the cutting competition. Also, I really don't think the ABS would be interested in paying a higher price to add non members to their insurance policy for these cutting competitions. Nor should they, in my opinion.
 
Bailey really summed it up very nice. Thank you bubba and larry is also right. It is all about learning. The ABS is educational not professional so there is a fine line to walk.

Ed, it only covers ABS sactioned events. Thats it. It does not replace, add to or anything else that an individual might have. It only covers members during sactioned events.
 
I read the editorial a couple of weeks ago. I also built some of the art pieces that were at the Reno show and were slammed in the editiorial for being pretty but not functional. I competed at the last cutting competition in Old Washington but since they don't have a 4th place trophy I came home with a piece of mind knowing that my knives can perform when put to the test. I constantly push myself to find a better heat treatment, better steel, sharpening technique, edge geometry etc. so that I can offer the customer the best knife possible from me.

I build my art pieces the same way I build my using grade choppers. The only difference is that my art pieces are embellished. So the comments in the editiorial are not only absurd but are statements of ignorance.
My comments to Mr. Dick are we live in a free country and he has a right to be wrong if he so chooses.

I wonder when everyone will get off Jerry Fisk's case and realize what he has said over and over again. Our cutting competitions are about promoting the forged blade and our insurance covers our members only.

Bailey.....those little squirrels aren't protected in Arkansas. We batter and deep fry them in Arkansas and serve them with buttermilk biscuits, red eye gravy and mashed potatoes. Fitch and I will arm wrestle over a fried squirrel any day. We haven't figured out what to do with the walnut in the squirrels mouth yet.

Ron Newton
 
An open competition would be a good thing.

Expecting the A.B.S. to take it on and slamming them for not doing so, is a silly thing.

Just because a knife is considered an art knife, does not mean it does not work. Most of these folks put all they know about performance into their more artistic work. I am wondering just how the author came to the conclusions that were reached.

Just my opinion.
Gus
 
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