Steven Dick Editorial in July Issue 2004

Bastid said:
I am wondering just how the author came to the conclusions that were reached.
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I look at who it was that authored this article and know that the whole article has to be taken with a grain of salt. In the past I had a great deal of respect for the writings by Steven Dick, but over the last few years a great deal of that respect has been lost. It is obvious to me that he didn't ask anyone in the know at the ABS for their take on the ABS cutting competitions. He probably didn't even think to do so. That would have just muddied up his preconceived ideas.

The above is just my opinion and for all I know Steven might have investigated the the topic of his article fully. Somehow I doubt it though.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I look at who it was that authored this article and know that the whole article has to be taken with a grain of salt. In the past I had a great deal of respect for the writings by Steven Dick, but over the last few years a great deal of that respect has been lost. It is obvious to me that he didn't ask anyone in the know at the ABS for their take on the ABS cutting competitions. He probably didn't even think to do so. That would have just muddied up his preconceived ideas.

The above is just my opinion and for all I know Steven might have investigated the the topic of his article fully. Somehow I doubt it though.
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Keith, the presumption on your part is just as ignorant as what you're accusing Steve Dick of.

Like most here, I'm a huge fan of the forged blade and have many knives made by friends in the ABS. I don't presume to speak for Steve, he can reply here himself if he chooses. (Though his editorial raised an eyebrow when I read it, somehow I doubt that his intent was all that sinister.)
 
In my opinion I wasn't making a presumption and here is why. Jerry stated that he was not contacted. If someone else from the ABS had been contacted I am pretty sure that Jerry would have known about it since he is the one that sets up these cutting competitions. The fact that Steven didn't seem to have a clue about the facts surrounding why the ABS handles cutting competitions in the way they do is also a good indication that he didn't bother to check his facts before printing this article. If I am in error about this then I will gladly apologise to Steven, but first he will have to take the time to present his side here.
 
I went back and read the editorial several times over and I think that the direction of this thread is slightly misguided in relation as to the overall meaning of Dick's editorial.

While I agree with what Jerry Fisk has said regarding the cutting competition I really think Steve was using it as a "for example" to the bigger picture he is trying to paint.

Allowing stock removal knives into an ABS cutting competition is a bit akin to asking permission to drive your Jaguar in a Porsche car club meet. However, there are competitions that allow both.

I think that Steve Dick is more than likely trying to relay a frustration of seeing fine forged blades, with superlative heat treat that has been done by the hand and experience of its maker, be relegated to a collection and never see use. I see that the focus of the editorial is asking "where are the working knives"

If you look back into the earlier days it seems that bladesmiths really set out to show that the knives were better and alot of articles were written with a "dig yor heels in" approach as to why the forged blade was superior. Not so much now.....even on the forums most consider it a "dead horse" issue.

The editorial seems to prod "let's see some hard working forged knives and less art"
 
I don't suppose this article is available on-line anywhere, is it? I can't get that magazine locally. Could someone post the editorial? Or at least quote what it was exactly that he said about the knives at the Reno show?

At the risk of getting off on a tangent, regarding this point:

" I think that Steve Dick is more than likely trying to relay a frustration of seeing fine forged blades, with superlative heat treat that has been done by the hand and experience of its maker, be relegated to a collection and never see use. I see that the focus of the editorial is asking "where are the working knives"

I'm not sure I get this. If he really has to ask where the working knives are, I can only think that he's not looking very hard. And while I can certainly understand that makers must truly appreciate and cherish the real-world feedback from those who use their knives in the field, is there really a any pervasive feeling of "frustration" when their knives are "relegated to a collection" :( :rolleyes:

I find this a bit hard to believe. Though if I'm wrong, I'd sure like to apologize to any makers whose days I ruined by buying their knives for my collection. :p

Cheers,

Roger
 
I have heard rumblings and whining from some "over sensitive" types who feel "wronged" because they are not allowed in the ABS competitions, in spite of the fact that they are not in the ABS and do not forge their blades. This always leads me to the same point. Wouldn't it be nice if an organization could still have the freedom to run THEIR own event, the way THEY want to? If it's an ABS event, then let the ABS decide on the rules and let everyone accept it without condemnation. What a dream world that would be! :rolleyes:

We have been doing “live” cutting demos at shows for a very long time. In over 12 years of doing "Live" public testing at tradeshows, I have yet to run into any show management who would not allow us to perform our own tests and demonstrations. Where it is true that we have had to sign some waivers in the past, we have never been banned from putting on one of these demonstrations. Our insurance company, on the other hand, has been a completely different story.

We have explored the idea of sponsoring cutting events in the past that would be open to all comers and have hit the "insurance blockade" nearly every time. Most promoters and/or insurance companies do not want to be on the liability acceptance end of an event where any untrained, drunken moron could wade in swinging a razor sharp bowie like the Tasmanian Devil (No offense to the "Taz" who I am sure would be a wicked competitor) and who could pose a potential threat to either them self or an innocent bystander.

As we all know, the "drunken, steel-flinging-moron" would not be held solely responsible for all damages incurred in the case of a personal injury and the promoter of the event would most assuredly be included in any litigation that would soon follow.

So, if somebody's is hell-bent on testing their own blades that don't fall under the definitions set forth, or meet the requirements set forth by the ABS, then why don’t they simply do their own "live" testing? Instead of whining about how they have been "wronged" by being excluded from an organization that they are not qualified to participate in, why don't they shut their pie hole, buy some rope, buy some 2x4s, bring a vise, and get busy with their bad-assed bladeware and show the world what a force they are to be reckoned with?

I'm just thankful that in today's world of frivolous lawsuits and litigation that the ABS still sponsors such an event. At the rate things are going, do you think we'll still be seeing these demos and competitions 10 or 20 years from now? I hope so, but I have my doubts. I think we should enjoy these competitions while we can. It will be a sad day indeed when we are telling our children and grandchildren about “how, ‘back in the day’, they used to have these amazing ABS cutting competitions. . . .”

Sometimes it’s enough to be thankful for what you have.

Rant mode off . . . .I need to go get another beer and start flinging some steel ! ! ! ! ! ;)

Jerry
 
Jerry,

I couldn't agree more about the "drunken steel flinging moron" syndrome. My step father was a litigation specialist for a Texas based insurance company. He brought home case after case of just such an individual who seriously hurt themselves doing soemthing stupid and tried to sue the Insurance company covering the host of the facility. It is an all too real problem and unfortunately it is one that ruins or prevents a great deal of events such as this.

There really is no answer to this other than to tough it out. If you screen the participants and disqualify someone, than you open up a whole new set of problems. If you screen the participants and one of them who you passed hurts himself or someone else,..........Bad stuff there too.

I have only been to the cutting competitions at teh Old Washington Hammer-ins, and there Mike Williams, Jerry Fisk and Greg Nealy do an exemplary job of making sure safety rules are followed TO THE LETTER. This is the only way to be to provide longevity to your events.

I know this is off a little from the direction of the editorial comments, but Jerry brought up a valid problem.
 
I agree with Roger. If Steven is unable to find great forged working knives then he hasn't spent much time looking. There are thousands of them out there. Besides that, most of the high art forged knives I have seen will do a fantastic job of cutting/chopping. These knives are not all flash, they definitely have substance as well.
 
RogerP said:
I

I find this a bit hard to believe. Though if I'm wrong, I'd sure like to apologize to any makers whose days I ruined by buying their knives for my collection. :p

Cheers,

Roger
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In the editorial he is addressing the fact that many makers are creating knives that are destined only to be sold to collectors and specifically to be in collections. If this is the case, then that is totally fine by me.....I would never cry if one of my Bowies goes in a safe.

But there was a time, especially in the magazines, where stock removal vs forging was argued heavily, and bladesmiths went well out of the way to tell you why the forged blade was superior and showed you why. Companies like Cold Steel came right back and directly attacked this.

I am not sure that the bad blood doesnt still exist...
 
Here's a totally boring idea that might address some concerns - give all table holders the option of submitting a knife to an objective third party tester who runs the blade through standardized tests and assigns a score to that knife.

Not nearly as much fun to watch as a cutting comp, but relatively safe, objective, standardized, and hard to screw up.
 
Ed,

I don't have that issue so can't respond directly to what he wrote. It seems that the interest in expanding the current competitions is growing so it might only be a matter of time. The Oregon and Orlando shows allowing stock removal blades are a good start.

Maybe it isn't reasonable or fair to expect the ABS to open their competition to makers who don't follow the ideals they are trying to promote. Their event though, in conjunction with the shows mentioned above and hopefully others, could lead to a major competition involving the winners/runner ups. I'm a boxing fan and have to deal with multiple "world champions" per division. On rare occasions these champions will face each other to name a "unified" champion. If a company like Blade, who has a broader interest in the knife making community than any single organization or manufacturer, would show the interest and be willing to invest in it, then there would be a good chance for makers around the country and with differing ideals to compete against each other. A Competition Knife Invitational if you will.

The insurance hurdle seems to be the biggest obstacle but if the existing shows are able to insure their events with certain competitors then it would be reasonable to assume that those same participants could be covered at a different event. In that case the participants would already have proven themselves not to be drunken monkeys... :D BTW, I agree that safety should come first even if it limits the view or amount of spectators. If these events could also be filmed that would be a plus. I remember Jerry mentioning a huge fee to have a show televised but perhaps it would be cost effective to sell the events on DVD.

-Jose
 
XRAYED: You read the article with a keen comprehension. Steve Dick has written some excellent editorials, all with the intent of benefiting the world of knives. I consider him an honest critic.

Makers have a lot of choices when entering the profession. The "art knives" are more economically rewarding to the maker than using knives. It is easy to look at past art knives and strive to make them, great skill is required to achieve a visually pleasing knife. Knives that are replicas of desired antiques are readilly recognized and appreciated due to the scarcity of the origonal.

Some chose to develop origonal art, some achieve true excellence.

Using knives are another ball game. Some know the qualities of a good one by experience and chose wisely. This arena is becoming less populated all the time due to the nature of our culture. "Tatical" knives know the same challenges.

Some Bowies are a study of ellegance and grace and a joy to develop as an expression of art. Some manifest true functional qualities.

Those who seek function should be able to justify every aspect of the knife, from the foundation (steel) to the heat treat and design.

We all need to pay attention to the critics, they can be our friends.
 
This seems to me to be a non-issue. If a maker feels that they have a blade which would do very well in the type of tests that the ABS sponser, what is stopping them from doing the tests themselves as Busse noted. They can film them, put them up on their website, make a pamphlet put it on display at their booth, etc. .

They could also just as readily put the required time and effort into developing such a meet and invite other stock-removal makers, or anyone to showcase the abilities of their blades. It is not as if the ABS is saying that stock removal makers can not do such tests.

Logically, if stock removal makers did such work, and it became known, the public would eventually create a demand to see the two broad groups compared anyway so it would naturally evolve into open events. This would be hastened by direct comparisons which the stock removal makers could readily do by comparing their results against the ABS ones which are publically known.

-Cliff
 
Personally, I'd love to see comparisons between forged and non-forged blades in cutting comps, but I don't think the ABS competition is the right place for this. Maybe the Guild's would be best.
 
I don't understand what cutting free hanging rope and water filled soda cans has to do with the overall use of a knife? I know the ABS has guidelines and cutting tests to reach a certain level as a bladesmith. I thought the ABS cutting competitions were for members to recieve a trophy at the finals after competing at the different hammer-ins during the year. It could be compared to pistol competions gun clubs have to win a trophy. Most are open to only members of a particular club. IMO, I think the knife buying public is looking for a knife that cuts well, sharpens easily and holds an edge. I think the solution here would be for stock removal makers to form ther own organization to promote stock removal made knives with get togethers similar to hammer-ins to help educate new makers into knifemaking by way of stock removal, having seminars or maybe even start a school where you could go to learn how to make knives. I think most stock removal makers usually learn from other makers. It would be nice to have other sources to learn.
 
Razorback: Good thoughts!! The Oregon competition had some very reasonable tests, tests that sought true performance as well as fun.

Maybe someone has a description of the test, If so please post them on this thread. If no one has them I will get the information.
 
Well Razorback I believe the cutting competitions are not for trophies. They actually test the smiths performance at making a blade and knife that will hold up to the tests. Chopping a 2x4 is much different from slicing a can or rope. These tests are designed to test different aspects of blade performance. I have never won a cutting competition, I have competed in a few and will compete in more. But that being said I do consider myself a winner for the fact that my knife held up to the tests. I know that I can forge a knife that will hold up under different conditions and uses asked of it. I think the main value of these competitions is to provide the customers with a better product. I have learned something from every competition I have been in and it goes directly into my knives that I make. Just my two cents.
Brion Tomberlin
member ABS
Anvil Top Custom Knives
 
It seems to me that Steven was trying to make the point that too many bladesmiths are making pretty knives that are made for collectors. He seems to think that the ABS has lost its way and may no longer be as interested in advancing the state of the high performance knife. From the tone of the editorial you would think that ABS bladesmiths for the most part were no longer interested in making working knives. Comments like; "It seemed to me that few of these makers were really interested in making working knives. The majority were simply looking for a chance to sell very high-end art pieces to wealthy collectors.", would lead me to believe that Steven believes that most ABS smiths are now out only for the money and don't really care to make good useable knives any more. Comments like this and the ones about the ABS seeming to be afraid of opening up their cutting competitions were aimed at stirring the pot, in my opinion.

Maybe Steven needs to take in a few more hammer-ins and classes at the School of Bladesmithing in Texarkana. He needs to investigate whether indeed his assumptions are fact or fallacy, or something in between. It would be a very good idea for him to do some in-depth research on the matter and then he could write a knowledgeable article that would actually mean something. What he wrote in his little editorial seems to me to be nothing more than conjecture, however.
 
The ABS cutting competitions seem to be done in good fun amongst the members and alot of careful consideration goes into the design and manufacture of a knife that will compete...and alot is learned from that research. However, I worry that competitions of all blades, stock removal vs forged, stainless vs non-stainless, would turn into a "less than good natured" rivalry set out to prove something that is highly subjective.

For instance...one of John Fitch's cutting competition knives would fare much better in his hands than someone less experienced. Tremendous knife...bad cutting technique.

The competition would not fairly gauge the forged blade vs stock removal in anyway....scientifically at least....unless a "machine" was doing the cutting.

Also, the cutting tests only judge just a small aspect of what a knife can do or should be capable of. The winning knife in a cutting competition is not the be-all-end-all knife....and I think that the competitors know that.

I would like to see an "ease of resharpening" competiton....a "handle comfort competition"...etc :eek: These are areas I see overlooked in many ways. I see a knife as a delicate balance of factors including edge holding, geometry, ergonomics, toughness, resharpen-ability, and the ability to perform the task that it was designed for.........and these can't trully be judged in a competition.
 
Let me begin by saying that I haven't read the editorial that Steven wrote. I have been in a few cutting competitions though.

Razorback you are not to far out of line when you say that, "Cutting free hanging rope and water filled soda cans dosen't seem to have much to do with real world use of a knife.". this is a paraphrase but pretty much what you were getting at I think. It really dosen't take to much of a knife to do either one. The first knife that I forged would do both. The free hanging rope has been cut with a blade forged out of mild steel. But now lets dump the water out of the can before it is cut and bundle up say six or seven pieces of rope and cut that also. the rules have drastically changed. add to that chopping a two by four in half and chopping into the cross grain of a piece of kiln dried hardwood say maple or oak. What kind of a knife will it take to do all of this and not roll or chip at the edge. Granted you are not going to run into any rabid pieces of free hanging rope on your way to granny's house but if the knife that you have can claim victory over the above tests you can pretty much be assured that it will be up to most things that may be ask of it in your every day cutting chores.

I was a competitor in the cutting competition at the Eugene show. Here is what we had to do;

First. Cut a strip of college ruled notebook paper two spaces wide and four inches long held by a small paper clip that is suspended from a string. the paper must be cut cleanly. The uncut piece must remain in the paper clip.

second. put a number 64 rubber band around the blade of a knife and pull it away from the edge. release the rubber band and count the number of pieces that are cut. more than three is pretty good.

third. Shave the newsprint off of a newspaper without cutting through the paper.

fourth. stand the cardboard tube out of a roll of bathroom tissue on end on a two and a half inch square support and cut the tube cleanly in half. give yourself an extra pat on the back if you can do it and leave the bottom of the tube standing on the support.

fifth. Spear a three inch styrofoam ball floating in a bucket of water. ball cannot come into contact with the side of the bucket.

sixth. Stand an empty soda can on its top and cut through it vertically like splitting a piece of fire wood. the can has to be cut not crushed.

seventh. chop accross the edge grain of a piece of kiln dried hardwood. deepest penetration wins so don't hold back. hit a 3/8ths inch wide mark and score extra.

Last. make slicing cuts on a piece of hemp rope until it requires more than 25 lbs of downward pressure to complete the cut. only four inches of the blade can be utilized. One lay from one inch hemp rope will be used. The rope must be cut cleanly in two before the cut is counted.

this was the layout of the competition at Eugene. of the eight contestants that entered only three of us made it through the first Qualifying cut of the paper. cutting the rubber band resulted in a six to ten pieces cut. shaving the print from a newspaper was cutting lesson in its' self and several tries were made by some. The toilet paper roll was next and only one contestant was able to cut it and leave the bottom standing on the support. all three cut the can cleanly. only two were able to spear the ball and everyones' knife survived chopping into the hardwood. one fellow hit the metal clamp that was holding his block of wood to the support but only minor damage was done to both. The knife was easily repaired (sharpened). All three contestants were within a half point of each other at the beginning of the slicing test. the winner made One hundred and Seventy Seven cuts before exceeding the pressure limit of the test. The whole contest was done without resharpening of the knives and the only damage was from the knife hitting the steel clamp. The damage was toward the tip and the sharpening was to this area only and had no effect in the slicing test.

So there you guys have it. How do you think that a knife that will do all of the above tests will hold up in real world cutting chores? Do you think that the tests are a fair judge of the knives.

The knife that I made and competed with was made with the same methods that I use for every knife that I make and had the same harness and edge geometry that I use for the knives of this size that I sell. It had an eight inch cutting edge. A one inch copper habaki a damascuss gaurd and a mesquite burl handle with a copper feral. Overall length is just under fourteen inches. blade is one and one quarter inches at its' widest point and was forged from 52100 from Rex Walter. Oh yeh I won.
 
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