Sticker shock an annoying trend.

[PURPLEDC]

I think it's actually the opposite of what you are describing.....

Companies are really starting to step up in terms of quality, and blurring the lines between midtechs and productions. Just look at ZT in recent years. A lot of their stuff is on par with mid techs in terms of quality and design, but just because they're production knives most people don't want to pay midtech prices for them.
So what you're seeing now is companies saying "Screw that! We're making a great product, so you're going to have to pay for it."

And look at some of Spydercos latest offerings. I'm sorry, but you can't claim that they're charging too much when they give you a knife in freakin s110v for a little over the hundred dollar mark.....
As for their Taiwanese knives, they are some of the most perfect constructed production knives on the market, and the vast majority don't break 200 bucks. Its irrelevant that labor isn't as expensive in Taiwan...... All that matters is that the end products are amazing. It's like the argument over customs that are 100% CNC'd. In the end, they're still absolutely perfect knives. Just made differently

You should be paying for the KNIVES. Not rewarding the maker for being able to do something the old fashioned way.....

How long have you been collecting? I only ask because I am feeling like an old man because I have been collecting the better part of 25 years. And IMHO companies are starting to slip in quality. Also the whole blurring the lines on production and mid tech? No offense to you but i hate this midtech term as it really is a term that was invented to describe how a particular knife incorporated handmade and production assembly methods to offer a value to customers. It doesnt necessarily mean that a product was built to a certain standard of quality. What really gets me is how companies are implementing interesting yet very simple and quite frandly "lazy" build methods and people feel they are custom options. Not to call out a specific company but int he 80's and 90's many knives could be bought with a satin or mirror polished blade. Most times this was standard finish practice on a knife. Now companies are dipping a blade in acid or coating it then tossing it in a tumbler. While this is a cool finish and was implemented by custom makers there was really 2 main reasons it came about. 1. It offered seasoned makers a way to offer something unique but with lower costs and make a more accessible product and 2. for the new maker who didnt have the skill or patience to polish out a blade a way to cover up sloppy grind lines. And BTW I didnt ask how long you have been collecting to be insulting. I am just trying to see if there is any correlation between the era in which people grew up and what they consider quality. Another thing. If you were a millionaire would you decided to get a ferrari but you found out that they started making their cars in the same factory as a $60,000 audi yet didnt lower their price would you still pay a quarter of a million dollars for a car that no longer has the handmade prestige that made you lust for one to begin with. Do you buy any custom knives?

 

[Stays Sharp]

I disagree.
If company X makes an awesome knife in country Y with labor=$40/hr, and it's AWESOME, then I expect to pay a hefty price if I want it enough.

If company X then moves production to country Z with labor=$5/hr, and it's STILL AWESOME, then I expect to also reap the benefit of off-shoring in the form of lower retail prices - especially if I live in country Y and am competing in that same labor market.

It's not about the 'old fashioned way', it's about how your dollars are spread throughout the supply chain.

And I agree that Spyderco's quality is stupid good for the price, throughout the product line. Though I definitely prefer the Japanese and USA made products over the Taiwan plant *from what I've seen*. But they adjust their prices for the designer, materials, and country of origin (labor cost).

It's good that to you, it IS NOT just of the lack of doing it "the old fashioned way" but what he points out is also true... A good number of knife guys shun foreign made blades simply because it isn't made in the good ol USA and are quite vocal about it on here. Your reasons, while tied to it becomes secondary. Just pointing out the fact that IT IS about the "old fashioned way" to others.

Taiwan (with Spyderco in this discussion) may not be the best example when citing labor cost and overall savings by going overseas. Obviously we (USA) have much higher wages across the board but Taiwan is not China and they have labor laws that mirror ours. Sal has said that the addition of Taiwan was not because it was cheaper but because the makers there are very capable (ex. Chaparral 3, Rubicon). The recent S110v mule was produced in Taiwan and was also the highest priced mule to date... Partly because of the steel price, and extra machine time required but it more or less shows you what I'm talking about. And that's with knowing that Spyderco sets MSRP's at a constant scale (from Sal). The Sage 2 when it first came out was the $150 Sebenza alternative that offered similar materials.... Fast forward to 2014 and do you think these same skilled makers that obviously have high tech equipment of their own haven't increased their bottom line? Similar to what we see with Japanese Spydercos ($160 G10 Worker for example), upper end Taiwan Spydies are getting upwards of $499 MSRP. So we can say that prices NEED to be cheaper if made outside the US but in Spyderco's case, it fulfills the wrong goal and is not realistic. Spyderco's select steels get shipped to Taiwan, knife gets developed and proto'd, finally enters production and shipped all the way back here. So it seems, to them going to Taiwan was about the makers and their capabilities than to save a fast buck in production costs just to charge their customers the same amount anyway. Sooo...in the end, those who complain simply because they want it built the good ol fashioned way in the USA for those high quality high priced knives got it right because in this case, where it's made is simply the bottom line... At those prices, yes bringing production back to the US would be more ideal. They are supposedly expanding the Colorado facility so we will see...

 

[Riz!]

SI think its the demand for flippers, titanium and some custom designer's name attached. People will pay what they feel an item is worth (to them) and nothing more. Add to it that the value of a dollar has declined so much and you will see an increase in the price. When sales start to decline, either from prices that are too steep or lessening decline, the companies will back their prices down. You CANNOT blame these companies for being "greedy". The whole point of making a product and selling it, is to make money.

The cutlery industry has gotten good at drumming up a demand for their product. The Zero tolerance model, for example, collaborates with one of the most popular knife designers, makes a great product, then hypes the shit out of it and its latest steel, then holds off for a period of time releasing the knife. When they do, its a trickle. A few dudes get them, make youtube vids and rave about the product, which creates more demand. Preorders occurr. Then they release limited version and some of the standard version. Preorders are filled and all the knives are sold before they even hit the store! Then the secondary market takes over and people pay 50-60 bucks more for a knife just because they didnt get kne the first few releases. Then finally they start a steady flow of product, which sells well and eventually kills the demand. Then you start to see sales, small price drops. Conveniently as this happens, the next new knife if starting to get hyped and trickled out, continuing the cycle. For example. 0551, then 0550, the 0561, then 0560, then 0562cf and 0562 and the 0620's and the 0392... And so on...

Its smart business from a money making/marketing standpoint.

Why do you think the spyderco paramilitary 2 is so popular? Is it a great knife? Hell yeah it is, could they ramp up production to meet demand? Yup, but then demand drops. Are their prices more reasonable? Yes. Spyderco's model is built around the sprint run idea. Limited production of unique variations of the same knife, creating a demand and fueling sales.

We are to blame for the prices. We pay what they ask. Lets face it... The collecting of knives on our end, the genious marketing models on their end and the very forums we love all contribute to the prices. How many of us have enough folders or fixed blades to use each one until its totally dull and then just grab a new knife out of our box and use again until dull and then keep going? I bet it would be years or decades before some actually had no sharp blades. Even moreso, how many of us have actually used and sharpened a blade until it was unusable or the handle broke or the lock wore out? We dont NEED multitudes of knives. We WANT multitudes of knives. I am not knocking anyone, I participate in it. Until I find my perfect knife, I will keep buying. I am happy that the industry strong amd growing, its a sign of a recovering economy. The designs are better and better and the the materials are better and better.

I will say, I have started to support the smaller companies now, like Southern Grind and Survive Knives. If I am going to drop $200-$300, i want it to support small American business and if I do go with a bigger company it better be a USA made product. Over all, everyone benfits. We get better products, custom makers get their name out (which probably i creases their own sales and they get royalties on their collaboratively designed blades), the manufacturers make money, they employ more people, who then turn around and support our economy other ways. It is FREE MARKET CAPITALISM at its best.

 

[PURPLEDC]

^ .Thats what turned me off of Beggs knives. That show he had on discovery showed some of the people involved in the assembly or making of the knives,like the brothers. Lighting things on fire,acting like an idiot,and clowing around like morons.try doing that in Chris Reeves shop, see how long you last.Charging 800.00 for a knife with a bead blast finished blade,scales that are 65% made of g10 with no liners,and 1/4" dull edge by the finger choil.Bravo,theres a knife for the ages..

I here that. My field grade wasnt even that smooth of an opener which is their claim to fame. I sent it in to them to ask if they would re work the detent so it would flip better. I was very specific and included a note saying not to adjust the lockbar because the lock would fail if all they did was reduce the pressure. I colored my detent ball with a black light ink and they never touched it. They did exactly what I said not to and reduced the lockbar tension. I opened the knife and turned it over and applied pressure to the tip and sure enough the lock failed. The wouldnt return my emails. I re adjusted the lock so that it wouldnt fail and dumped it. The finish was good but it was far from anything remotely special.

 

[Krissig12]

I disagree.
If company X makes an awesome knife in country Y with labor=$40/hr, and it's AWESOME, then I expect to pay a hefty price if I want it enough.

If company X then moves production to country Z with labor=$5/hr, and it's STILL AWESOME, then I expect to also reap the benefit of off-shoring in the form of lower retail prices - especially if I live in country Y and am competing in that same labor market.

It's not about the 'old fashioned way', it's about how your dollars are spread throughout the supply chain.

And I agree that Spyderco's quality is stupid good for the price, throughout the product line. Though I definitely prefer the Japanese and USA made products over the Taiwan plant *from what I've seen*. But they adjust their prices for the designer, materials, and country of origin (labor cost).

I was referring specifically to the custom makers who willingly choose to make their knives by hand and charge more for them even though I don't care whether it's done the "old fashioned way" or if its 100% CNC'd. Some people do care, and that's fine. But to ME, it doesn't really matter as long as the end result is exactly the same.

But back to production companies..... I do agree to a certain extent that, if the products are exactly the same as before, the companies who switch to overseas labor should have prices that reflect the reduced costs to the company. But the simple fact is that the knives just keep getting better and better. A lot of people believe that the Taiwanese spydies have actually surpassed their U.S. made counterparts. With this in mind, I find it hard to fault spyderco for finding a way to both build better knives and make a greater profit.

CHEAPER LABOR, but BETTER KNIVES===> WIN FOR SPYDERCO, because they can justify the cost based on the improvements in the products, and at the same time they make more money because of the lower costs associated with manufacturing them in Taiwan. If the products had remained the same, THEN I could see people getting mad at spyderco for not reflecting the reduced cost of manufacturing in the retail prices.

But they're not. They're getting better, so in my mind it all balances out:thumbup:


Edit: all of this is assuming that Taiwanese labor actually costs less.... As others have said, there might not be a huge difference in the cost of manufacturing. In which case, spyderco isn't even making a bigger profit.... Just making better knives:thumbup:

 

[Silvanus]

I was referring specifically to the custom makers who willingly choose to make their knives by hand and charge more for them even though I don't care whether it's done the "old fashioned way" or if its 100% CNC'd. Some people do care, and that's fine. But to ME, it doesn't really matter as long as the end result is exactly the same

Whether it's handmade or 100% CNC matters to me when price comes into play. If I'm paying for example $700 for a custom X maker made by hand, I'll pay it because I feel the hand working and the time and effort a maker puts into his craft is worth the money. But I won't pay the same $700 for a "midtech" from Y maker if it's comperable in materials and design. There isnt any added value for me if the guy CNC'd the whole thing and maybe touched it at some point in the process. It's like eating a meal fully prepared by Gordon Ramsey then saying a Gordon Ramsey TV dinner is just as good because his name is on it and it's his recipe.

 

[Krissig12]

How long have you been collecting? I only ask because I am feeling like an old man because I have been collecting the better part of 25 years. And IMHO companies are starting to slip in quality. Also the whole blurring the lines on production and mid tech? No offense to you but i hate this midtech term as it really is a term that was invented to describe how a particular knife incorporated handmade and production assembly methods to offer a value to customers. It doesnt necessarily mean that a product was built to a certain standard of quality. What really gets me is how companies are implementing interesting yet very simple and quite frandly "lazy" build methods and people feel they are custom options. Not to call out a specific company but int he 80's and 90's many knives could be bought with a satin or mirror polished blade. Most times this was standard finish practice on a knife. Now companies are dipping a blade in acid or coating it then tossing it in a tumbler. While this is a cool finish and was implemented by custom makers there was really 2 main reasons it came about. 1. It offered seasoned makers a way to offer something unique but with lower costs and make a more accessible product and 2. for the new maker who didnt have the skill or patience to polish out a blade a way to cover up sloppy grind lines. And BTW I didnt ask how long you have been collecting to be insulting. I am just trying to see if there is any correlation between the era in which people grew up and what they consider quality. Another thing. If you were a millionaire would you decided to get a ferrari but you found out that they started making their cars in the same factory as a $60,000 audi yet didnt lower their price would you still pay a quarter of a million dollars for a car that no longer has the handmade prestige that made you lust for one to begin with. Do you buy any custom knives?

I don't personally buy custom knives, but I know a few people who do. And from MY point of view, the handmade ones arent any better in an OBJECTIVE sense than the ones done in part by CNC. The Ferrari analogy is a good one, but there are a few differences between ferraris and custom knives. In that price range, the people buying them don't just want them as commuter cars. Theres something more about them than just being really good cars. I understand how custom knives can be the same way for some people, but just not for me.

Since I like to use all of my knives, I won't pay more money just because a knife was hand made. It doesn't add any value beyond prestige, and what do I need that for if I'm just going to carry it in the same way I carry a 100 dollar spyderco?
All of this is of course assuming that one day I WILL buy a custom knife, which may or may not actually end up happening.

As to how long I've been collecting: about two years now. But even in this short period of time, I've seen a great deal of change in the big production companies. Since I got into the game, spyderco has released many iconic new models (think southard, rubicon, techno, domino, etc), all of which have been widely regarded as a huge step up in build quality over their previous offerings.
I've also been around to see the implementation of higher end steels that were only previously available in customs. Benchmade used to only have a couple of m390 folders, but now it's quickly becoming a staple in their lineup. Spyderco has used a million different high end steels in their sprint runs, and they too are now implementing a lot of these steels in their production models. Many of which are very affordable
But the best example by far is ZT.....

Elmax and carbon fiber for $120? 0770cf.
Full, thick, Redford designed Ti framelock with an Elmax blade riding on bearings, and with some of the best flipping action of any production knife on the planet? And around $170? 0801.

Go back ten years and find me some production knives with similar specs that costed less money. Ain't gonna happen

 

[Krissig12]

Whether it's handmade or 100% CNC matters to me when price comes into play. If I'm paying for example $700 for a custom X maker made by hand, I'll pay it because I feel the hand working and the time and effort a maker puts into his craft is worth the money. But I won't pay the same $700 for a "midtech" from Y maker if it's comperable in materials and design. There isnt any added value for me if the guy CNC'd the whole thing and maybe touched it at some point in the process. It's like eating a meal fully prepared by Gordon Ramsey then saying a Gordon Ramsey TV dinner is just as good because his name is on it and it's his recipe.

Sure. If the handmade one costed the same as the CNC'd one, then of course Id consider the handmade one to be a better value. However, if the midtech was of similar quality but half the price......

 

[goldie]

It really goes to show how good crk is for the money, and theres 2 amazing shop tour videos to back it up.I think the sebenza and zaan get overlooked sometimes because they have been around a while and everyones looking for the fast flippers,and more tactical knives. Like purpledc said about acid washing blades and scales;such less work involved for final finishing, and to still pay a premium for that kind of finish?I don't mind stonewashing blades,because it looks good and still hides scratches,but acid washing,grey beadblast is horrible for a knife that's in the custom category.If these makers tried to do the kind of work Brian Tighe does,as far as finishing and polishing, they would either charge so much it would put them out of business or just give up and walk away..

 

[daizee]

Knives made 'by hand' are valuable for their exclusivity and sometimes for features that are hard/expensive to put into high production. Sometimes a maker will simply hit a sweet spot with a design that isn't even all that innovative, but which the production market isn't covering either with specs, colors, or whatever.

As far as the fancy stuff goes, there's no sense in complaining about the price of art in the art market - it's about demand for the value of things that don't fit in a fungible production scheme.

You can hand-forge a knife identical to a mass-produced one if you want, and *someone* will pay for that labor because it's 'hand made'. But understand that they are not merely buying 'the knife', and it's not necessarily better.

Sometimes you're buying product, and sometimes you're buying art. it gets complicated when the two blend a bit. Be clear with yourself which market you're in, and which of the two you are ogling on the internet when you get annoyed about pricing.

 

[RevDevil]

I see plenty of variety available. You can find good inexpensive knives from the big guys. As for their higher end offerings. If the knives aren't worth the price It's a self correcting problem

Yep, plenty of variety but that doesn't mean it's all good. The old "if you don't like it, don't buy it" adage is wasted on this topic. I see this whole thing as a way to curb what the gougers started about 4-5 years back, flipping knives that were popular for ridiculous amounts to people that had far more money than brains. Granted people can do whatever they want with their money, I couldn't care less about that. What I find hilarious is how so many people post that they are dying to own something regardless of price, a Shirogorov that runs $350 all of a sudden is now up to $850-$1150? That is some strange math and that price hike was about the craziest and most mysterious to date.

In terms of custom knives, I wonder what margin custom makes take home and level of control when they release their name to a "collaboration". That would be the biggest question in my mind at this point. I can't imagine all makers would be happy with a set percentage. As for the other aspects of this topic, I would guess that with so many new makers that have come out in the last 2-3 years, there is an active effort to push for market share and associate quality with price (as in the $100 knife is good, but the $800 knife is 8 times better!) There is very few things that are new under the sun these days, and the point of diminishing returns and overall value is dropping quickly.

 

[archieblue]

I agree with the OP. Many manufacturers have daringly crossed the line IMO. I still see Chris Reeve Knives as the benchmark in knives in pretty much every way. Their quality can only be matched, if that. Yet CRK holds steady in light of everyone else's straight up price gouging. Personally I just vote with my dollar. Of course I really really want one of American Kami's new Colubris IIs. But at $450 I simply cannot justify it when I can get something like a Survive! GSO 4.1 for a little over $200. As far as folders go I can't see any good reason to spend more than the cost of a Sebenza or a Strider. IMO verything else is just a gimmick.

 

[stabman]

Seems to me that some of the knives are worth the cash and some aren't.
Wow, just like every other decade...

Have some companies jumped into a huge cash grab? Sure, but that's just how business goes. Some grab for as much cash as they can while they can; sometimes it works, and sometimes it don't.

I think for this discussion to have much merit it requires some examples of specific knives and companies; at that point, we can actually argue meaningfully about it.
I'm not seeing an industry wide price gouging in effect.

 

[ScottyE]

The brous division is a great knife, I think its worth 300.00,but his latest offerings are almost twice that for no reason. materials have not changed.the t4 was a good deal at 250 or so, why is the carbon fiber one double?theres no way g10 to carbon fiber should double the price.I have a shirogorov tabargan, paid 550 lightly carried. to me its still to much,but I like it enough to keep it,and 550 is a "bargain" for cronidor 30/blackblue g10.Their model 95 is way way overpriced.its almost 1200 new,3 times what they should be. theres at least 3 dealers who sell them,so the supply and demand nonsense is done.In the last 2-3 years all these makers came out with ti framelocks,like Robertson,curtiss,Medford,all great knives,but all more than they should be.I think Kizer and Reate are the way to go right now.Similar materials and quality for 2/3rd's less than makers listed above. Im done spending big money on these knives,unless I see a bargain in the exchange or online somewhere,ive got better things to spend 600+ on a knife unless its something real special.

In addition to carbon fiber he also uses titanium in the non t4 models.

 

[red mag]

The game has changed.
There are more and more companies that provide knives to the comsumer these days.
They have to distinguish themselfes, which leaves us with myrad of designs - some more useful than others.
While there are different reasons to enter a market probably the most important is to make money - which leads us into producing economically.
I do see some designs that I don't understand and I understand that there are production possibilities that safe money (think about finish).
We have a broad selection avaliable which is fine, but makes it even more difficult to identify a good product.
Many indications are no longer valid, or have changed their meaning. Think of "Made in Japan", or go even further back "Made in Germany" (a marking that should protect british quality). Even the price is no longer a strong indicator. If you buy cheap, that's what you get, otoh a high price does not necessarily get you high quality.
From time to time I too get excited, only to find "all that glitters is not gold".
I found peace with certain companies (or makers) that i trust.
It also depends on what you are collecting - today many offerings are targeted at the collector.

red mag

 

[zhyla]

I don't understand it but knife collectors are willing to pay astronomical prices for some knives. I can barely stomach $100 for a knife. They get used, scratched, resharpened, on rare occasions lost. I wouldn't walk around with $800 in my pocket, why would I buy an $800 knife?

But some of you guys want to buy higher end knives and that's great.

 

[leghog]

I'm the other way around.
I traded a .38 that had some issues for a new Spyderco Police. :thumbup:

$500 for a new gun? Screw that...I could get a nice knife for that money!

You can get a pinned and recessed S&W M10 for well less than $300. I see many used knives go used for much more.

A fool and his money are lucky to have ever met in the first place.

 

[RedLynx]

There is a reason. (Albeit, to me, an inexplicable one.) The reason is because people will pay it.

I just came across a utility knife that was over $100. On sale. A freaking utility knife. I hope the razor was adamantium.

 

[LX_Emergency]

Where on earth did you get the idea that a liner lock should be cheaper than a frame lock?

 

[B JACKSON]

share the link to the $100 utility knife please!