Stiff Horn and City Knife Patterns needed

B

Brian.Evans

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Does anyone have a good Loveless city knife or stiff horn pattern? I'm going crazy trying to get the patterns exactly right. These knives are too special to not get exactly right.

I had thought about emailing Mike Lovett, but I'm kind of a bit nervous about doing so.
 
I don't but am watching this one with interest. If you get a pattern and can share it, please keep me in mind.
 
Well, I do give out my patterns to anyone that asks for them. However, I find the comments here sounding a bit like if you need to steal those. You must be desperate to put that into print. If you need to have them that bad, can't you find them somewhere and do what is necessary to get what you want in size and so forth. If you can't even draw it why do you feel you should go ahead with making it. You can't ask the makers. They have both passed. Shame on you both.

Frank
 
Frank Niro said:
Well, I do give out my patterns to anyone that asks for them. However, I find the comments here sounding a bit like if you need to steal those. You must be desperate to put that into print. If you need to have them that bad, can't you find them somewhere and do what is necessary to get what you want in size and so forth. If you can't even draw it why do you feel you should go ahead with making it. You can't ask the makers. They have both passed. Shame on you both.

Frank
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I think you may have taken the comments wrong. I asked if he was given a pattern and allowed to share it to please keep me in mind. I didn't demand it and it didn't sound to me like the OP was trying to steel them. Not everyone is a gifted artists such as yourself.
 
Okay, I did come out with my gum boots on. I apologize but only partly.Do your own thing by drawing it over and over. By the way I was always the kid in school that couldn't draw a straight line even with a ruler. I repeat my patterns usually every time I make a folder. It helps me to come up with something I think is better.
Frank
 
Frank, I had forgotten that I made this thread, but imagine my dismay when I opened it again!

List of patterns and makers I've asked for patterns and NEVER had someone have such a poor attitude towards asking:
Tony Bose-Zulu spear
Tony Bose-Eureka Jack
Tony Bose-coffin Jack
Kerry Hampton-sod buster
Multiple makers-Loveless DPH
Calvin Richardson-BHB-S
Ken Erickson-One of his designed slip joint patterns
Stan Buzek-stockman pattern
Stan Buzek-Texas Jack pattern
Nathan Raptis-equal end Jack
Ken Coats-trapper pattern

It is only my extreme regard and admiration of your work and general nature on this forum that prevents me from expressing my thoughts right now.

I assure you, I can draw just fine. I have a pattern that is very close to the knives I questioned. I admire both makers mentioned and I think the best way to feel close to another maker and their work is to make one of their knives. I have zero desire to rip off another maker.

Frank, I admire and respect you as a maker and more so as a person. You contribute a whole heck of a lot to this forum and you don't have to. Heck, you've answered many questions I've had in the past. You're a good guy and a great maker. No hard feelings, just some hurt ones.

Now, where'd I put those pencils........
 
I believe the manner in which this thread is written to be disrespectful. You are saying you didn't mean it like that. I'm sorry but that's what I got out of it.
Frank
 
We all know how just a couple of thousands here and there make/break a knife. And how much changes the overall feel of a knife from pattern to the real deal, adding the third dimension to the package.
People who do reproduction of ancient swords/dagger work with a lot of measuring in order to be faithful to the originals. Their skills would allow them making rapiers from scratch, but the point is another when you have to stick to an existing design. The OP requests to me falls in that kind, as he wish to challenge himself and honouring milestone design, not making just a similar one. I think it was a valid request.
 
As a new guy to knife making I have always drawn out my own patterns....
I had no idea it was ok to ask for someone else's pattern.
I've built a bunch of knives now and each one I feel gets a little more to my liking, in curves and attitude.
I don't have patterns I go by, I just draw and build. Most of the time refining the build as I go.
There is a thousand versions of a swayback and I keep tweeking the design.

I do believe making a replica should be sold as a replica.
And could be patterned out as so.
 
I think the OP was a valid and reasonable request as well, as mentioned he is trying to get his execution as close to the original design and honor it.

I know 2 knifemakers with direct patterns from the Loveless shop.
I've purchased knives from them both.
I did ask one of those knifemakers for a pattern copy of a Loveless Field and Stream and he politely refused.
I don't know why he refused, but I respected his decision
 
Frank Niro said:
I believe the manner in which this thread is written to be disrespectful. You are saying you didn't mean it like that. I'm sorry but that's what I got out of it.
Frank
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I have no idea how you see this as disrespectful. I honestly thought you replied to the wrong thread in your first response.
 
So you don't feel copying people's work is something that should not be done unless permission is received and since these makers are no longer with us, permission is not required?For sure on the other hand going with an "idea" taken from someones work is certainly acceptable and will never even be noticed.
No doubt there are many ways to look at this . I now accept it's considered to be an okay thing to do. I don't see anyone else agreeing with me. Therefore I offer my sincere apology.
Frank
 
I can see where you are coming from Frank. If this involved a unique design feature, or was trying to be passed off as the original, that might require some scrutiny. In this case, with a knife style that has been copied many times in spirit, won't be confused with the original, and is done with the intent of emulation, I look at it as "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." I see a lot of guys making close copies of Aaron Gough's Resolute model, but no one is going to mistake it for the real thing, and I doubt Aaron is concerned, since he has shared in great detail how he does his work. I can make a similar knife, but intend to buy a Resolute in the future. Just my $.02
 
I have a friend that helped me get started. He has about a hundred patterns and said I was welcome to take any I wanted. I chose to look at a few and draw them out. Personally, I don't want to copy or trace his patterns because I want them to be mine. On the other hand I see where some folks want to make the exact knife. To each is his own I guess.
 
I kind of thought Loveless patterns were free game. There are makers who's entire work consists of Loveless pattern knives. They even go as far as putting "Loveless maker" as part of their makers mark(with their name).

I've also seen a lot of Murry Carter pattern neck knives being made. I imagine he might have open sourced his design and let people use it.

I've never directly copied a design. I've used features from some designs. But nothing that's a uniquely trademarked feature of someone's work. All knowledge is generic in some form or another. To directly copy a design seems a little counter intuitive to the creative process for me.

Loveless is one thing. Bob has passed on and using his designs doesn't seem terribly wrong to me. I don't really see it as disrespectful because in a way, it's allowing his work to still have life. Now if his family was still making money off of the designs then maybe not. I don't think that's the case.

Copying living makers knives seems a little tacky IMO, even if you get permission. Without getting permission it's disrespectful. I've seen a few guys copy Aaron Gough's knife and I think that's kind of crappy. He has done a lot to help teach newer makers and to repay him, they rip off his work.
 
Bob often let people trace his original patterns. He like that makers used his ideas and made knives people actually used.

Many of the makers that have traced those patterns do not feel it is their right to allow others to copy their copies.

Bob Engath use to sell blades in the Loveless style

Here are a few of the patterns

http://www.engnath.com/drwframe.htm
 
I certainly think the OP's within fair territory, but I also understood Franks response, I think now that Frank has re-looked at the OP's true intent, the original question makes more sense to him--JMO
I will submit this for the OP, one of my favorite makers, who has quite a presence on YouTube is Walter Sorrels-he recently gave me high praise for one of my designs, but when I requested he make me a 'his version' of this knife, he kindly told me how backlogged he was, and that he wouldn't take an order for now. To my point--Walter offers a heck of a lot of information through his YouTube videos, and IMO he encourages people to make their versions of many of his knives. He has done several Loveless style hunters, and I feel he would welcome you using his 'images' at least to help you come up with a design for what you wish to make--Another maker that does an awesome version of the Loveless hunter is BF's own TK Steingass--I have bought several knives fromTK, in fact he built me one of my own design, which he has added to his line--it's the 'Harpoon' EDC if you care--but TK is a great guy and he is one who I think would be good to approach about his Loveless inspired designs.

Good Luck brother--you sound like a good and thoughtful maker to me.
 
JG Custom Metal Works said:
I've also seen a lot of Murry Carter pattern neck knives being made. I imagine he might have open sourced his design and let people use it.
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Murray has a book called - 101 Knife Designs:
He has many of his patterns available in this book for public use.
 
With all this review I can easily see I was "out to lunch" on my thinking on this. The education here is for me always continuing. Your understanding, as shown, certainly is appreciated.
Frank
 
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