Stigma - hand sharpeners vs system users

Amoo said:
I have a little bit of a different opinion here with comes from different experiences. I've never been a great free hand sharpener, and part of that is medical. For example I can MiG weld and stick weld, but can't TiG for the same reasons. I can only steady one of my hands with the brace of the other. So for me, unlike most, I decided that if I was going to start buying expensive knives, I was going to need a way to sharpen them. For $400-$500 (this is with a few extras as the base system is now $325 and includes the Gen2 arms)I hopped on the WE bandwagon and was kind of surprised at the "system bashing" as was mentioned above. Like was already mentioned, people scoff at a $400 sharpening system, but not the 15th $400 CRK in their "EDC Rotation" which they have no ability to sharpen themselves and if they want sharp have to send it off to have done, incurring even more cost.

I view my guided system as a tool. I wish I felt I was able to talk more about my knife related tool on this very forum, but those threads don't typically end well. While I also agree that learning to free hand sharpen is a great thing to know, I see so many new folks come to this forum and ask the "freehand vs guided system" question and the post is instantly filled with "learn to freehand". While good intended advice, it can also have the effect of pushing people out of the hobby or helping to create those who can't sharpen their own. If those posts were worded more like "I think learning to freehand sharpen is a great skill to have and would recommend it, but if you want to try a guided system I've had good luck learning on/using X/Y/Z" it would be a lot more helpful.

As was already mentioned, learning to freehand sharpen from a totally green novice takes a great amount of time, patience and some natural skill. In the meantime are we really helping folks asking for advice when the only answers they get that don't end in a flame war are "learn to free hand"? So I do think there is a stigma and a bit of looking down your nose from a lot of folks who do and can freehand and I'd hope some of those folks who read this actually consider for a second that a person can actually do and have both. Like many of you have said. Learn the basics on a guided system, then learn to freehand.
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I agree with you here. There are also people like ME. I have ONE ARM/HAND! So freehand sharpening is no longer an option. Although, I was decent at freehand before the accident. What you must remember though, is for every person who CAN freehand well, there are many who say they can, but don't understand "truly sharp". I find this most often with the OIL bench stone crowd, more than the waterstone crowd. If someone says they can get a razors edge freehand, then shows you their trusted 2-sided bench stone, believe that person has never experienced a "truly sharp" blade. This also exists in the Arkansas stone group. They will get an Edge sharp, but simply can not match water stones.
 
LOL maybe you should go tell Murray Carter he can't get a knife truly sharp with a cinder block and cardboard. After that go tell Jerry Fisk he doesn't know what sharp is because he uses oil stones. seems to me the system guys are the ones looking down their noses on the free hand guys.
 
ncrockclimb said:
Really? In my opinion, that is totally inaccurate information.
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That's fine, I respect your opinion. But I'm basing what I said on fact. Systems like the Wicked Edge and Hapstone are made from billet aluminum and stainless steel and are solidly built. The Edge Pro is the original, and though made of molded polymer, is fairly sturdy. And again, ITS THE ORIGIONAL! On the other hand, the KME is made from stamped steel and wood. And the pivot arm rod is super thin diameter. Other systems use at least a 1/4" diameter rod. The KME uses roughly same diameter as a Lansky rod. The whole thing is just more fragile. And the cheaper materials/under sized pivot arm rod lead to more inconsistencies. Again though, AS I ALREADY SAID, it will still do a fine job sharpening any knife. But so will the $26 dollar Chinese Edge Pro knockoff. Or the $28 stamped steel AGPtech sharpener. My point was simply that it's overpriced. Hey, don't get me wrong, I think the Wicked Edge is also overpriced! I made my OWN system, that uses the stones. Because it's THE STONES that deliver the performance. The sharpener just has to hold both the stone and knife. And better, thicker, stronger materials will hold those 2 items more consistently.

You see? Those are all facts. I'm not lying on anything. So you can take the opinion that my statements are not accurate. But I'm wondering what "FACTS" you're basing your opinion in?
 
Jason B. said:
It's the skill not the tools...
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You are correct in that the skill of the person plays a huge part in being able to achieve truely sharp edges. But I would never say the tools play no part in the end product. I have both very cheap stones and top quality Shapton Glass stones for my sharpener. Using each produces 2 completely different results. And I doubt I need explain the outcome, but to say using either stone is the same given the user's skill level, is simply untrue. Perhaps you mean that given the choice of high quality sharpening components, the end result is determined by skill level. If that is what you mean, I completely agree.
 
Every stone is going to be unique but I wouldn't say an edge from a hardware stone is going to be any worse than what can be done with the Glass stones. It might not be as pretty but at similar grits the edge should not vary that much. If you have a lot of variation from stone to stone then you have an unforeseen issue with your technique.
 
Gotta disagree with you there Hoback. The KME is solid, never had an issue with it once I familiarized myself with it, which wasn't very long. But I'm biased I guess because of my lack of experience with the automatic guided systems. To each their own, amirite?
 
As Jason said, it is the skill, not the tools. And there are certainly people with the skill to freehand a really fine edge.

But for most of us, it's much easier and much faster to get a clean, sharp edge with a guided system.

If you have a blade 1.5 inches wide, the difference between a 13-degree angle and a 17-degree angle is just a 0.1 inch (2.54 mm) difference in the height of the spine off the stone.

So if your skill is pretty good and you can keep the spine of the blade exactly within a tenth of an inch from the stone during the entire sharpening time -- which can last for hours on a reprofile -- you'll be creating a blade with an angle ranging from 13 to 17 degrees (26-34 degrees inclusive).

With a guided system, the angle you want is the angle you get, and it is consistent.
 
Jason B. said:
Every stone is going to be unique but I wouldn't say an edge from a hardware stone is going to be any worse than what can be done with the Glass stones. It might not be as pretty but at similar grits the edge should not vary that much. If you have a lot of variation from stone to stone then you have an unforeseen issue with your technique.
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Says the Member with a SHAPTON SIGN as an avatar! LOL! I'm sorry. Just too funny- promoting a top of the line product, while "swearing" it makes no difference. LOL. Besides that little bit, you can't honestly say that using 2 systems, first one made of quality materials and keeps components true, & the other made of thin and/or lesser quality materials which allow components to flex, are going to give equal results?!? I believe you are mistaking what I'm saying. I am not talking of 1 high quality component over another. I'm saying that using proper high quality stones WILL give better than trying to sharpen on a rock ya found outside. I don't care HOW good your skills are. Now if you can't, or WON'T agree with that, I don't know what to tell you.

My technique is just fine. Those who own one or more of my knives would agree.
 
As long as the stone is a good match for the steel, there is going to be no difference from one stone to the next at a given grit level with one caveat. The manner of binding is a big deal. A relatively loose binder is not going to make the same edge as a stone of the same grit value with a hard fixed binder. Otherwise, AlumOx is AlumOx, SiC is SiC.

As for freehand vs whatever I always come back to two facts:

- CATRA specifically builds sharpeners that apply a slight (1-2°) convex at the apex due to testing which showed a performance increase.

- There are no vintage examples of guided hand sharpening equipment even though the technology to make them has been around probably since the mid 1700's if not earlier.

Only due to the disposable razor and cheap availability of steel for replacement knives has the common knowledge of how to sharpen tools been lost to so many. There aren't even many older books on the subject it was such common knowledge. I don't think for one second that contemporary carpenters or other edged tool users are getting their tools any sharper with guides than many craftsmen of yesteryear did without any additional thought or gear.

Not that using a guide hurts, and I'm sure plenty of folk from yesteryear couldn't sharpen worth a damn, hence the proliferation of barber's shops and beards. But it really does come down to the skills more than anything as long as the steel is a good match for the abrasive.

In general I'm still going to recommend folk learn freehand on a coarse stone and go from there. Just don't start on a good knife...

EDit to add: many natural, locally found stones will work OK if not very well on simple steels. Many locally found stones are not of a suitable composition though and tend to glaze or crumble, also are no good on many stainless or steels with high carbide content. I use a natural silt stone on my hatchet when backpacking - it stays just as sharp as a with a Norton puck or any other abrasive at that grit level. If it were D2 or something, not a prayer.
 
kvanpacker said:
Is there a stigma that exist between those that are hand sharpeners vs those of us that can't won't or don't develop those skills and use a system like wicked edge, edge pro, lansky etc...

I'm not saying there is or isn't as I haven't run into that many sharpening fanatics

It's like sal has said paraphrasing "there are knife people (small subset of pop) then steel people and even smaller group edge fanatics"

So besides message boards the chances of running into genuine knife steel and edge people are somewhat remote
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So back to your original question, looks like based on the discussion so far that there are "stigmas" on both sides of the discussion. I guess I just never noticed it before. I retract my first observation.

Seems like the free-handers are looked down upon by the system users, too. It's a circular look-down party!

Me, I'll just sit here scraping a piece of metal across an oily piece of rock and a piece of leather and cutting whatever I need to cut with it, and stand back in awe of all of the skills of my betters, just happy to be allowed to post in the same forum as them. :D
 
What I've learned from this thread so far. The guys with red names and sharpening products or services think Learn to Free Hand should be the default advice. Most guys without seem to favor a system or both.

Coincidence?
 
HeavyHanded said:
- CATRA specifically builds sharpeners that apply a slight (1-2°) convex at the apex due to testing which showed a performance increase.
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I wish more people knew this. Seems like everyone thinks to get a sharpe edge the edge bevels need to be perfectly flat. Which is one of the major selling points of all the systems.
 
Amoo said:
What I've learned from this thread so far. The guys with red names and sharpening products or services think Learn to Free Hand should be the default advice. Most guys without seem to favor a system or both.

Coincidence?
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Lol ! good observation.

In all fairness I do just as often recommend someone buy a hardware store combination stone as my product. If they need something more that's different. And I doubt Jason gets a kickback from Shapton every time he makes a recommendation.

I push it because once learned, you have a skill that translates to stuff you probably will never be able or want to do on most guided systems. And you'll be able to tackle any common cutlery with minimum fuss.

It is not a no-brainer though. Use a system if you cannot freehand, but I always have and will continue to suggest people try freehand first - is more versatile.

If you get any good at it, functionally there will be no real difference and we're talking about a consumable resource here.
 
I don't see it as a stigma as opposed to personal preference. I think many of the freehand folks would simply say "if it works for you... good on ya."

I did most of my real "learning" on a Sharpmaker but now I rarely use it.

After getting frustrated with a cheap dual sided free hand stone from home depot... I bought the Sharpmaker and got instant results. My experience is similar to Obsessed's in that the Sharpmaker helped to learn more about the angle / contact edges / what a burr is and actually feels like and what a good sharpening stroke "feels like." I took that knowledge and started to apply it freehand and now I rarely use the sharpmaker. Next, I'll invest in more decent mid level stones. but now that I know the basics of freehand and have a small measure of confidence with it, I'll be doing more of that going forward.

Anecdote: Last Sat night, the wife and I had four "couple friends" over for drinks. After a few, one of the guys (who knows I'm a knife guy) took out his small edc and said he hacked up the edge using it earlier in the day. I grabbed my cheap DMT fine / perforated diamond stone from the junk drawer and spent a few minutes on his and another guys edc's. They looked like they were watching me practice some ancient black art. I gave them edges that were good but certainly not what I knew I could get with some time and real attn. But they were blown away with their edges. It generated some fun conversation. I never would have bothered had I needed to pull out and set up a sharpmaker or clamp system.
 
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Similar to Steve6387's anecdote. A couple of guys I used to work with carried really poor quality folders (S&W brand, I think) that were in just miserable shape.

I took them and sharpened them on the bottom ring of a series of coffee mugs (yes, I used to keep a set of coarse, medium, and fine coffee mugs at my desk) and then stropped on the cardboard back of a steno pad (that I had previously loaded with some green compound), and handed them back very sharp, poor quality knives.

That is one of the benefits of free-handing. Once you get the concepts, you can do a heck of a lot with whatever is at hand.

I have no doubt that someone who uses a guided system can out-sharpen me any day. So can any of the skilled (or mediocre) free-hand folks here.

But compared to the normal humans I encounter in daily life, I am some sort of sharpening god. As the saying goes - in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

The only reason I would ever recommend free-handing to someone is that I don't know any other way to sharpen. Plus, if you tell most people: go buy a $500 Wicked Edge Pro, you'll do great, they'll look at you like you are crazy.

On the other hand, if you say "go buy a $10 oil stone at the hardware store and some mineral oil, read some forum posts and watch a few videos, and practice on some inexpensive knives to develop the skills," they will usually go along with that.

That's why you usually see people recommend people to at least TRY to learn to free-hand.
 
Great post.

I am not a good sharpener by forum standards but I am a one eyed king among my friends.

Bottom line is my choice in a guided system taught me a lot. I'll use the sharpmaker here and there but I won't rely on it anymore.

Sent from my Android powered Samsung.
 
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I'll continue to use my wicked edge FS pro

At this point I have no intention to learn to free hand, I just don't have the time and patience for it

To those to do, kudos to your skills my hats off to those that master the art

I'll keep my training wheels
 
I'll continue to use my wicked edge FS pro

At this point I have no intention to learn to free hand, I just don't have the time and patience for it

To those to do, kudos to your skills my hats off to those that master the art

I'll keep my training wheels
 
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