still can't weld

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
47,357
i asked a while back how to weld a handle to a damascus stack. I threw away my POS 110v rig and used my neighbors big 220v wire welder with the argon. Big blobs holding on the handle and it still broke off on the first welding press!!!!!! Have any of you ever just used a long bar as the middle layer and the handle? AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!
 
No, and when these handles fall off, the weld is flat and smooth so I am getting zero penetration into the 1084/15N20 stack.
Are you preheating before welding?

I imagine stick would get better penetration?
 
I use 1/2" x 1 1/4"-1 1/2" (depending on the width of my initial stack) and grind 45 degree angles all around the handle ~ 1/8" and weld with solid penetration. Then I clean off the weld and weld a second and maybe even a third pass on the joint.
 
It seems everyone likes to brag about how they can weld through rust, paint, grease...


Clean bright shiny steel will weld.

Welding to knife steel, try preheat and stainless wire.
 
On rebar I grid to silver metal. Clean end on the stack too. Sounds like preheating may be the solution. How hot do you have to get it?

Pics of weld would help.

Also, what kind of prep work are you doing before welding?
It seems everyone likes to brag about how they can weld through rust, paint, grease...


Clean bright shiny steel will weld.

Welding to knife steel, try preheat and stainless wire.
 
What kind of welding is it? Solid or tubular wire? Is it argon or c25? Are you dragging or pushing while welding? What brand of welder is it?

Hoss
 
Solid I think. Argon I guess. Wiggling while welding. Snap On branded, so no idea.
What kind of welding is it? Solid or tubular wire? Is it argon or c25? Are you dragging or pushing while welding? What brand of welder is it?

Hoss
 
i asked a while back how to weld a handle to a damascus stack. I threw away my POS 110v rig and used my neighbors big 220v wire welder with the argon. Big blobs holding on the handle and it still broke off on the first welding press!!!!!! Have any of you ever just used a long bar as the middle layer and the handle? AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!
I TIG weld.
Nice Miller 250 HF . . . or as I call it . . . Heaven.

Early on when I was learning stick welding . . . I don't know why . . . I guess I just thought all that pain in the arse was part of liven' . . . I developed a saying :
Turn it up !
 
You have someone that can coach you and check your work? I can do a little torch welding but I wouldn't trust my life on it though.
 
Solid I think. Argon I guess. Wiggling while welding. Snap On branded, so no idea.

It’s probably c25 which is part co2 + argon. Just turn it up, point the nozzle in the direction you’re welding so that the shielding gas is leading, direct most of the heat at the billet and less on the tang or handle. I like making a triangle weave with the point going forward. You’re too hot if you’re getting excessive spatter. You should be able to see the parent metal melt a little and fill with the filler metal wire.

Most new guys think it’s safer to weld on the cooler end of the range when in fact it will flow a lot better if it’s hotter.

No need to preheat unless the welder is under powered.

Hoss
 
It seems everyone likes to brag about how they can weld through rust, paint, grease...
Totally.
But my friend Ken actually can and does weld through all kinds of garbage !
Nice welds.
He is the one that tutored me in TIG welding and first got me some decent rod without copper plating crap on it.
He's something.
He makes the big bucks.
His motto has always been "Geeeeeterdone !"

I once asked him early on : "What are these little things that look like model car exhaust manifolds ?" He said "Those are cyanid gas manifolds . . . if I don't weld those right people die".
I'm just saying . . .
 
Sounds like amperage is too low.
Increase the current and probably have to speed up wire too.

Btw, Since my Hobart mig crapped out, I am back to stick welding. Forgotten how much more skill & finesse stickwelding needs. :-)
 
You welds should not look like blobs. Should be a nice concave radius that looks like a roll of nickels laid over.

This is some welding I did yesterday at work.

Close up.
Photo%20Oct%2030%2C%208%2002%2056%20PM.jpg


Overall project
Photo%20Oct%2030%2C%209%2035%2024%20PM.jpg
 
If you're welding solid bar onto the end (which is preferable if you don't want it falling off), chamfer the edge of the bar you're welding on to the billet heavily, I like 3/4 round bar myself, nubs for the end so I can use tongs and still run through the rolling mill. I chamfer like half the diameter, so that when I make the first pass, it's the weld isn't protruding much past the original OD of the nub. Crank the voltage way up, and the wire speed has to go way up also, if it's sputtering or blobbing, or whatever, it's not set right. Consider that your billet is essentially like trying to single pass weld to whatever thickness that is, the minimum being whatever your handle or nub is. In the case of most "prosumer" 220 welders, i.e. 250 amp and lower, you could be running at max output and still not be too high voltage. If it's a 210 or 190 amp, definitely be near the top setting, then, build a puddle, and take your time going all the way around, then repeat on top of that weld you just ran, but running the puddle up and down so you're "painting" into the billet past where you previously welded, and the handle above the first weld. This should stack weld that ends up being wider now at the base, than the original OD of the handle.

I do this without pre-heating, and without removing mill scale, and haven't lost a handle in a very long time. The only point it gets tricky is once the nub has been run down through the rolling mill to 1/4" or so, and the billet restacked a time or two, but that's to be expected, and I'm just as likely to have the handle disintegrate somewhere beside the weld.


Just remember, the key, is establishing a puddle, and pushing or pulling that around, it's not like squirting hot glue. Higher voltage doesn't mean you have to be faster, in fact, take your time, and slow way down. If your weld is building up too fast, your voltage is too low.

Also, you want Argon/Co2 mixed gas, for MIG, but that's probably what you've got. Try to relax. :)
 
Higher hardenability , higher carbon steels should always be preheated before welding !! 400F or a bit higher should work.
My first job as a metallurgist was to weld on a 3" thick air hardening steel .It worked every time with a preheat but would fail if not preheated !
 
Preheat isn't a bad idea. It would be required for any weld with that material combination in a structural setting. You can get it stuck on there without. If you can give us the stats on the wire, gas and and welder. At least a pic of the controls.

The next thing that people can have problems with is setting the welder. The type of welding you are doing is short circuit mig. The wire touches the puddle and forms that short circuit and then the heat creeps up the wire until it creates so much resistance that it forms a pinch point and drops off into the puddle and the cycle restarts. On higher end welders you can adjust where this happens but smaller units you have to do this by contact top to work spacing. Its probably going to be closer than you find really comfortable. Grab a piece of scrap and turn your power up all the way and then keep the tip 3/8" to 1/2" from the work and adjust your wire setting. If you are getting loud pops and large spatter it's to much wire and if you are getting light flares and seeing large drops falling into your puddle it's to little wire. Now fine tune that setting by adjusting your tip to work distance with wire and power. People say it should sound like bacon frying and it does but it should be consistent like radio static and any loud pops indacate a problem.

Once you are set then you can start welding. To keep everything working right you have to stay in your puddle if you hear loud pops something has interrupted your arc calibration. For instance running over a glob of oil or a tack (high spot changes arc length) or you have left you puddle. You will notice this when you start a weld it will run bad until you have a puddle and correct arc length. Your puddle is everything for a good weld. Remember it's not glue or solder. With a small mig unit you have very low penetration so don't think you can weld anything that you won't forge weld. Your puddle is controlled by surface tension. Put a few drops of water on a table top and use a tip of a pencil to manipulate them. This is about the same control you have when welding and is what you have to visualize. Your puddle will follow heat. When welding 2 pieces of unequal size/thickness the puddle will want to stay with the thinner part. You may be able to control it with tip angle but if that doesn't work you will need tip motions. When you move the puddle the work will cool your puddle. You cannot move fast than your can keep up. With unequal sized pieces you will spend more time on the thick side. Try thickside hold for a 2 count pull the puddle to the other side for a 1 count. You should see your puddle shrink and then grow with the pause. Let your puddle grow to the same size on each side and adjust speed to keep it that way. The once the puddle is firmly wet into each side the surface tension will pull the puddle flat. This is a good way to know that you have a good weld.(notice how flat JT's weld is) if there is a high lump on either side you know that the weld isn't tying in as well in that size.
Tip motions should be as small as possible. For mig your basic motion is back and forth. 90 degrees to surface is the deepest penetrating. Angles will allow arc force to act in your weld. To high of angle will start to allow heat to reflect off the surface and at some point you will hear the sound change and you will be spraying spatter with no penetration. Short circuit mig has very low penetration. Think 1/32" tops just for something to visualize. One of the most common problems is being to far back on the puddle and only penetrating the puddle(no arc force to work). To make sure you are penetrating you have to hit the very front edge of the puddle. Because of this the tip is pointed a FEW degrees forward, no more than 15. I prefer the 3 electrode thickness rule for manipulating the electrode. The basic motion should be move arc forward with with a sweeping motion. The wire should not cross the front of the puddle ( the arc is going to be cone shaped and advance the puddle and with that small forward angle blow the surface of to clean metal. Volume will increase. ) the arc is then pulled back to the rear of the puddle to fill it. The large the motion the slower it is done. These should be fine motions. The less power your welder has the smaller the puddle and the movement. Dont worry about making the weld big, it's better to take more passes. Over time you will learn to very the manipulation to accomplish other things. One common one being the side to side because of thickness or when performing a vertical weld.

Send some pics of the welds. I might be able to troubleshoot.
 
As others have said, the preheat would be necessary to prevent embrittlement and cracking on a structural weld. You aren't doing a structural weld, so this is unlikely to help. All you want is to get a handle to stick. As others have said, clean your metal well and fillet your handle (I would use a large fillet).

But the big thing that you are doing is welding far to cold. Your billet is a giant heat sink. As such, you are getting no penetration and just globing up on the surface.

So you need more amperage. If stick welding, I would use 7018. Crank it up to the high end of the amperage range for the electrode diameter you are using. As stick electrodes go, 7018 doesn't have the deepest penetration, but it will be easily sufficient for this task.

If you are running MIG/GMAW I would run ER70S6 and run up the voltage or decrease wire feed until you get smooth puddle formation and clean welds. I would just take whatever settings you are currently using and bump up the voltage by 10-15%. If it is still globular and not making a clean puddle, keep going up.

If you elect to TIG weld it, I would probably again use ER70S6 but if you have S2 laying around, it will work fine, just be more diligent cleaning. I would run that weld at the highest amperage your welder can handle. I have a 200 Amp TIG machine and would run it full out. we don't care about pretty so I would max out the amps and vary torch speed and feed rate to match.

in order of preference for process, I would say TIG, Stick, MIG. I place TIG first because as soon as you become familiar, you will be precisely aware of the amount of penetration you are getting and the strength of the joint. Stick second because if you run it hot, you can be relatively assured you are getting a strong weld. I put MIG last because it is notoriously easy to get good looking low penetration welds with MIG. When properly executed, all of these processes are more than sufficient, It is just easier to finish a weld that looks acceptable with MIG and have it fail later.
 
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