still can't weld

Understand the this machine is not mine and it is set up to weld automotive body panels, etc.
 
Stack the cleaned bars up and stick in a vise. Weld all the corners down heavily, then turn the end upright. The billet is already hot from the previous welds. Give the end a quick grind with the angle grinder, grind the rebar end to a severe chamfer ( the end about half the diameter), set the rebar in the center of the billet end ... and weld a pass around it. I use either a 220V MIG at D setting or a stick welder. Make a couple more passes to build up a good strong cone of weld metal. Don't worry about pretty, concentrate on strong.
 
jdm61 said:
Understand the this machine is not mine and it is set up to weld automotive body panels, etc.
Click to expand...

It will require a different setting to weld a billet. The heavier the material you weld, the higher the setting and the faster the wire speed.

There is probably a welding supply store in your area that will help you. Bring with you an example of what you need to weld and they will advise you on what size machine, wire, shielding gas that you need. Easy peasy. Or find a guy wearing a soft cotton cap and have him come over to help you.

Hoss
 
These videos helped me greatly.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/stick-welding.html

I’m just a hobbyist with no training. I look up the correct rod with the correct polarity with the correct amperage for the steel I’m using each time. It makes a huge difference to be working with the right settings. Just like trying to weld a billet at 1500f won’t work well, you need the right settings on stick or mig welding.
 
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jdm61 said:
Understand the this machine is not mine and it is set up to weld automotive body panels, etc.
Click to expand...

Body panels are thin as balls. It's set to weld gum wrappers together.

If you haven't changed the settings turn that mofo up. You aren't getting penetration because it's getting hot enough to blob your wire but nothing else.

I'm assuming it's .23 wire. Turn the wire speed up to 2/3 of max and the voltage to a tad below that. Run some test beads on some mild steel scrap. It should sound like bacon frying a bit violently. Make a bunch of cursive lower case "e's" overlapping the previous bit a little.

Watch Welding Tips and Tricks video on how to set up your MIG if you are new to MIG and want to set it accurately. If it's a newer model it might have some auto set features as well.

Run practice beads until you can visualize what the puddle is doing.

That's how you eventually get the purdy stack of dimes welds shown earlier in this thread.
 
The first welding job I had when about 19 or so is the first time I heard that "roll of nickels laid over" to describe a good weld. 19 yrs old? WOW - that was over 50 yrs ago! I guess that makes me an antique! {g}
 
I certainly can’t tell you the right way, I can only tell you the wrong way that I got to do what I wanted. All I have is a simple 120 flux core welder, so “crank it up” isn’t an option. The only welding I do is to stick a billet together, so “weld better” also isn’t an option :p I go with the classic, if you can’t have quality, go for quantity. I kept trying to make a perfect pass to watch the billet fall off the rebar on the first smack of the hammer (I don’t have a press or power hammer). I read somewhere about building up the weld on corners, so I tried laying down a pass all the way around, then going around again building that first pass out onto the billet, then around again building that second pass back up onto the bar. That held better, but eventually came loose after repeated forging. I also tried the same with a bit of railroad spike cut off as a “square stock” handle to grab with tongs. That worked the best. Don’t know if that was about being square, being better steel than the rebar, the tongs sucking up some of the shock, or luck, but it worked. Good luck.
 
jdm61 said:
Understand the this machine is not mine and it is set up to weld automotive body panels, etc.
Click to expand...

Just tell your buddy you need to crank it way up. They should be able to accommodate that unless they have no idea how to weld and just found a setting that works. If it starts sputtering, and not holding arc, then you need to crank up the wire speed. Worst case, mark the wire feed knob setting they use with a sharpie, and the voltage if necessary, and you can set it right back where they had it.

If it's being used indoors, and they have shielding gas hooked up, it shouldn't be flux core or anything wonky. Although, if it's being used outside, there is a chance that it's flux core and they're running shielding gas, if so, that could cause an issue. My guess though, is that it's just ER70S-6 (carbon) wire, and 75/25 or similar Argon/co2 mix gas, which is good for 90% of general steel welding. Just crank it up.



Yes, pre-heat is advantageous if you're trying to make structural welds with high carbon. Is it "better" ? Sure. All we're saying is, in the interest of expediency, and trying not to over-load the OP with "best practice theory", is that it isn't remotely mandatory in this case. A couple of us here have made more billets in the last year that most of you will in a lifetime, Devin especially, no offense intended to anyone, but trust us, it's not necessary, unless it's a really weak welder. Frankly though, any 220V mig welder on the market, cranked up to a high voltage, should be able to handle this task. Or hell, don't believe us, no skin off my back. :p Just like the whole TIG welding dry stacks issue, those of us that do this for a living, have learned, there are quicker ways to skin this cat, which yield functionally as good results, with much less time and labor, even if it isn't quite as good; "on paper".

If jdm is really interested in learning to weld properly, that's excellent, it's certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but I'm getting the impression he just wants to be able to tack billets together, not worry about the handle falling off, and has very little interest outside of that.


Also, don't obsess over the "stacked dimes" aesthetic, it's very contentious whether this actually produces a better structural weld with GMAW, compared to a continuous, smooth bead, with proper penetration (robotic welds that are perfectly calculated, and tested, never look like this(stacked dimes) btw, and are continuous smooth concave beads), compared to TIG welds, which *should* look this way, based on how the filler is applied. Honestly it seems to have become an expectation primarily as a by-product of the "tig weld as art" phenomenon perpetrated by such things as the custom "chopper" bike scene, and trying to imitate that. Somehow, it's become a myth that it's necessary for mig welds, but there's plenty of science that shows that not to be the case. Does it hurt anything? Probably not, but there have been tests showing stacked dimes mig weld beads failing before properly penetrating deep concave smooth continuous beads. Heavy spray transfer welds, will never look like stacked dimes, and have the best single pass potential strength on thicker stock. Ok, I digress.
 
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I don't care if it looks like 40 miles of bad Arkansas back road as long as it sticks. it can look like stacked dimes or stacked rabbit turds. Makes no difference to me. :p
javand said:
Just tell your buddy you need to crank it way up. They should be able to accommodate that unless they have no idea how to weld and just found a setting that works. If it starts sputtering, and not holding arc, then you need to crank up the wire speed. Worst case, mark the wire feed knob setting they use with a sharpie, and the voltage if necessary, and you can set it right back where they had it.

If it's being used indoors, and they have shielding gas hooked up, it shouldn't be flux core or anything wonky. Although, if it's being used outside, there is a chance that it's flux core and they're running shielding gas, if so, that could cause an issue. My guess though, is that it's just ER70S-6 (carbon) wire, and 75/25 or similar Argon/co2 mix gas, which is good for 90% of general steel welding. Just crank it up.



Yes, pre-heat is advantageous if you're trying to make structural welds with high carbon. Is it "better" ? Sure. All we're saying is, in the interest of expediency, and trying not to over-load the OP with "best practice theory", is that it isn't remotely mandatory in this case. A couple of us here have made more billets in the last year that most of you will in a lifetime, Devin especially, no offense intended to anyone, but trust us, it's not necessary, unless it's a really weak welder. Frankly though, any 220V mig welder on the market, cranked up to a high voltage, should be able to handle this task. Or hell, don't believe us, no skin off my back. :p Just like the whole TIG welding dry stacks issue, those of us that do this for a living, have learned, there are quicker ways to skin this cat, which yield functionally as good results, with much less time and labor, even if it isn't quite as good; "on paper".

If jdm is really interested in learning to weld properly, that's excellent, it's certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but I'm getting the impression he just wants to be able to tack billets together, not worry about the handle falling off, and has very little interest outside of that.


Also, don't obsess over the "stacked dimes" aesthetic, it's very contentious whether this actually produces a better structural weld with GMAW, compared to a continuous, smooth bead, with proper penetration (robotic welds that are perfectly calculated, and tested, never look like this btw), compared to TIG welds, which *should* look this way, based on how the filler is applied. Honestly it seems to have become an expectation primarily as a by-product of the "tig weld as art" phenomenon perpetrated by such things as the custom "chopper" bike scene, and trying to imitate that. Somehow, it's become a myth that it's necessary for mig welds, but there's plenty of science that shows that not to be the case. Does it hurt anything? Probably not, but there have been tests showing stacked dimes mig weld beads failing before properly penetrating deep concave smooth continuous beads. Heavy spray transfer welds, will never look like stacked dimes, and have the best single pass potential strength on thicker stock. Ok, I digress.
Click to expand...
 
Simple answer: Turn up the amperage and/or turn down the wire feed. It sounds like you have penetration issues, which to me means more amperage. One thing that can affect penetration is amperage, but I've also learned that the distance of your nozzle from the weld will make a big difference in terms of penetration. The closer I can get my nozzle to a weld, the better the penetration will be. If I hang the nozzle back too far, the wire seems to melt before welding occurs. You want the wire to be pushing down into the material.

I would first try to address the penetration issue. If you can get good penetration and you're still getting beading, then you need to turn down the wire speed. I can easily weld a piece of rebar onto a billet using my poor little Lincoln HD125 (probably their smallest machine). As others have pointed out: proper prep (chamfering your bar) and preheating can all help out.
 
javand said:
Just tell your buddy you need to crank it way up. They should be able to accommodate that unless they have no idea how to weld and just found a setting that works. If it starts sputtering, and not holding arc, then you need to crank up the wire speed. Worst case, mark the wire feed knob setting they use with a sharpie, and the voltage if necessary, and you can set it right back where they had it.

If it's being used indoors, and they have shielding gas hooked up, it shouldn't be flux core or anything wonky. Although, if it's being used outside, there is a chance that it's flux core and they're running shielding gas, if so, that could cause an issue. My guess though, is that it's just ER70S-6 (carbon) wire, and 75/25 or similar Argon/co2 mix gas, which is good for 90% of general steel welding. Just crank it up.



Yes, pre-heat is advantageous if you're trying to make structural welds with high carbon. Is it "better" ? Sure. All we're saying is, in the interest of expediency, and trying not to over-load the OP with "best practice theory", is that it isn't remotely mandatory in this case. A couple of us here have made more billets in the last year that most of you will in a lifetime, Devin especially, no offense intended to anyone, but trust us, it's not necessary, unless it's a really weak welder. Frankly though, any 220V mig welder on the market, cranked up to a high voltage, should be able to handle this task. Or hell, don't believe us, no skin off my back. :p Just like the whole TIG welding dry stacks issue, those of us that do this for a living, have learned, there are quicker ways to skin this cat, which yield functionally as good results, with much less time and labor, even if it isn't quite as good; "on paper".

If jdm is really interested in learning to weld properly, that's excellent, it's certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but I'm getting the impression he just wants to be able to tack billets together, not worry about the handle falling off, and has very little interest outside of that.


Also, don't obsess over the "stacked dimes" aesthetic, it's very contentious whether this actually produces a better structural weld with GMAW, compared to a continuous, smooth bead, with proper penetration (robotic welds that are perfectly calculated, and tested, never look like this btw), compared to TIG welds, which *should* look this way, based on how the filler is applied. Honestly it seems to have become an expectation primarily as a by-product of the "tig weld as art" phenomenon perpetrated by such things as the custom "chopper" bike scene, and trying to imitate that. Somehow, it's become a myth that it's necessary for mig welds, but there's plenty of science that shows that not to be the case. Does it hurt anything? Probably not, but there have been tests showing stacked dimes mig weld beads failing before properly penetrating deep concave smooth continuous beads. Heavy spray transfer welds, will never look like stacked dimes, and have the best single pass potential strength on thicker stock. Ok, I digress.
Click to expand...
The MIG-LIKE-TIG stack of dimes is a weaker, lower penetration weld than a smooth bead.
 
Knight Owl Forge said:
Simple answer: Turn up the amperage and/or turn down the wire feed. It sounds like you have penetration issues, which to me means more amperage. One thing that can affect penetration is amperage, but I've also learned that the distance of your nozzle from the weld will make a big difference in terms of penetration. The closer I can get my nozzle to a weld, the better the penetration will be. If I hang the nozzle back too far, the wire seems to melt before welding occurs. You want the wire to be pushing down into the material.

I would first try to address the penetration issue. If you can get good penetration and you're still getting beading, then you need to turn down the wire speed. I can easily weld a piece of rebar onto a billet using my poor little Lincoln HD125 (probably their smallest machine). As others have pointed out: proper prep (chamfering your bar) and preheating can all help out.
Click to expand...


Well, welding a handle on, isn't what he's having a problem with I think, it's having it survive drawing out and/or restacking. Just getting a handle stuck on isn't usually an issue, but having one that'll survive multiple restacks, is usually tricky for most. Whenever I'm making damascus in a friend's shop with other experienced makers, there's an inevitable process of "tacking the handle back on", at very least, during restacks, and occasionally, mid-session, before restack. The handle transition area takes a lot of abuse, especially when drawing out billets on a power hammer, it's the main area of temperature differential between the hot billet, and the cool handle, and a concentration area of vibration and leverage, on top of being a change of base materials, and dimensions. It makes sense, and you've gotta have a strong weld with lots of penetration and material to compensate.
 
I am a full time certified welding inspector and have been a welding instructor as well as welder for 20 years with certs for GMAW, GMAW-P, GTAW, SMAW in steel aluminum and nickel alloys. The biggest thing I have learned is that I still have a lot to learn. Most of these techniques have a context and are not totally right or wrong. Stacked domes techniques come from using electrodes like 6010 or old school spray arc aluminum where the arc is really to hot to hold in one spot so its swept forward and then brought back to add some fill on top of the the cooling puddle. When used like this it is not wrong. Because it looks cool some places do it for looks. If done well there is still nothing wrong with it. It can be a problem if the puddles are spaced to far apart with to fast travel speeds. This can lead to some non fusions and sometimes pinhole porosity from the non filled center craters. It can also lead to a inconsistent weld bead with stress risers. Because of this some condem the technique and want the weld to be performed with no oscillating motion. This can also be problematic especially with non fluxed electrodes as surface tension can be a issue. This can lead to a very tall domed weld bead that is difficult to control and does not wet out well. Even small movements can help with this because the arc force pushing on the puddle will force metal to the toe and help with wetting as well as providing a larger weld deposit. Even when the stacked weld is being done for aesthetic reasons good technique can give a sound weld. I have qualified welding procedures using a somewhat stacked appearance and had them pass easily.
Also the term weld strong not pretty doesn't really provide the best advice since a weld that is free of flaws tends to look good.

You already weld as a Smith and know what makes a good weld. If you can just visualize that and then look at your welding equipment you know what has to happen. On some scrap or something as thick as what you are trying to weld make sure you can get a puddle. If not turn up the machine. You are going to have to weld slower and more deliberately than you think. So long as you can see the puddle you are welding. One way to know if both sides have fusion is to watch them cool. They should cool from the outside to the middle. If a weld toe stays hot it is not fused.

If you are still having problems send some pics for us to troubleshoot.
 
javand said:
Just tell your buddy you need to crank it way up. They should be able to accommodate that unless they have no idea how to weld and just found a setting that works.
Click to expand...

100% this. Turn up the heat, turn up the wire speed, and it doesn't need to look pretty.
 
skillgannon said:
I am a full time certified welding inspector and have been a welding instructor as well as welder for 20 years with certs for GMAW, GMAW-P, GTAW, SMAW in steel aluminum and nickel alloys. The biggest thing I have learned is that I still have a lot to learn. Most of these techniques have a context and are not totally right or wrong. Stacked domes techniques come from using electrodes like 6010 or old school spray arc aluminum where the arc is really to hot to hold in one spot so its swept forward and then brought back to add some fill on top of the the cooling puddle. When used like this it is not wrong. Because it looks cool some places do it for looks. If done well there is still nothing wrong with it. It can be a problem if the puddles are spaced to far apart with to fast travel speeds. This can lead to some non fusions and sometimes pinhole porosity from the non filled center craters. It can also lead to a inconsistent weld bead with stress risers. Because of this some condem the technique and want the weld to be performed with no oscillating motion. This can also be problematic especially with non fluxed electrodes as surface tension can be a issue. This can lead to a very tall domed weld bead that is difficult to control and does not wet out well. Even small movements can help with this because the arc force pushing on the puddle will force metal to the toe and help with wetting as well as providing a larger weld deposit. Even when the stacked weld is being done for aesthetic reasons good technique can give a sound weld. I have qualified welding procedures using a somewhat stacked appearance and had them pass easily.
Also the term weld strong not pretty doesn't really provide the best advice since a weld that is free of flaws tends to look good.

You already weld as a Smith and know what makes a good weld. If you can just visualize that and then look at your welding equipment you know what has to happen. On some scrap or something as thick as what you are trying to weld make sure you can get a puddle. If not turn up the machine. You are going to have to weld slower and more deliberately than you think. So long as you can see the puddle you are welding. One way to know if both sides have fusion is to watch them cool. They should cool from the outside to the middle. If a weld toe stays hot it is not fused.

If you are still having problems send some pics for us to troubleshoot.
Click to expand...


Yeah, personally, and I'm no master welder, with MIG, I like to use a right-to-left motion, pushing and pulling the puddle back, without overlapping the cooled section I'm working from much. This tends to give strong penetration and will give a "ripple" like appearance, that's not exaggerated like the stacked dimes aesthetic. When moving across larger gaps and joining inside welds, I use the same motion combined with moving up and down bridging the materials after the base pass, like a cross, although the "C" motion works well here also.

I think the big contention here was just the implication that MIG welds *should* look like stacked dimes, I'm not saying it's incorrect to utilize that, just that it's not really superior. Honestly I've seen arguments I agree with, that in the case where you would have an underpenetrating weld regardless, that the stacked dimes may give better strength than the same under-penetrating straight bead, because of more surface coverage, and the variable heat nature, but with proper penetration, it's at the very least, no better than a straight-ish bead.

Stacked dimes also clearly results from pulsed tig, with or without filler, and the advantages of these welds have been clearly demonstrated time and again, in the right circumstances, over a continuous fixed current non-pulsed weld, with better adhesion, penetration, and less HAZ, although even still, it's not universally always better.


Honestly though, and I know it's my fault, I made the point just to try and avoid piling too much theory on the OP to begin with, and look where that's gotten us? :P
 
Lately, it has been trying to get the handle to stay on even when pulling the billet out for he forge the first time.
javand said:
Well, welding a handle on, isn't what he's having a problem with I think, it's having it survive drawing out and/or restacking. Just getting a handle stuck on isn't usually an issue, but having one that'll survive multiple restacks, is usually tricky for most. Whenever I'm making damascus in a friend's shop with other experienced makers, there's an inevitable process of "tacking the handle back on", at very least, during restacks, and occasionally, mid-session, before restack. The handle transition area takes a lot of abuse, especially when drawing out billets on a power hammer, it's the main area of temperature differential between the hot billet, and the cool handle, and a concentration area of vibration and leverage, on top of being a change of base materials, and dimensions. It makes sense, and you've gotta have a strong weld with lots of penetration and material to compensate.
Click to expand...
 
Personally I would give it a good preheat. I was surprised when welding with stick that I had it break off. Some of it was because I thought I could still do it with my eyes closed but if I remember correctly I had some problems with it break in the HAZ.
One thing that could help is to cut one strip a bit long and weld it to your bar and then weld reinforcing passes over the top.

One thing that welders can make to much of is penetration. Penetration is not necessary for a weld. Fusion is. Penetration just gives a safety margin but can be over rated. When using lower penetrating types of welding equipment you can imagine how much room for errors you have. Forge welding is the end of that spectrum. The nice thing about mig welding is that you can see everything. So long as you can see that puddle melting into the base material its going to be a good weld.the only tricky part is looking close enough that you see the base metal melting and are not looking at the puddle sitting on top. That's really the whole thing.

If you are going to use this welder for a while the best thing to do would be to get some flux core wire to be used with 75/25 gas mix.the flux will give deeper penetration as well as improving wetting. It.can also help to run out of position and has improved toughness.

One last thing is double check that the wire is feeding ok. If you have feeding problems it will be difficult to get a good weld. Try to keep the liner as straight as possible. Test it by pinching the wire and pulling the trigger. It should run smoothly even with a little resistance. If it doesn't let us know.
 
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