Stirring the pot CRK and Strider

[KrisOK]

OK guys let me get the disclaimers out of the way. I KNOW that this is an old rehashed issue, and I do know how to use the forum search functions. AND I know that I'm a new member here. Not new to knives, but new to the forum. What I'm hopeing for here is some fresh dialog, because I'm trying to test my own feelings about this subject.

OK That said........

What makes a CRK or a Strider worth the price that they charge? At $400+ you are already in custom knife range, (at least the low end) and no matter how high quality these knives are, they are production knives that are mass produced. Sure they are very well made, but they don't use 'Magic Steel' or exotic components that the rest of the industry doesn't have access to. It seems that other manufacturers can use the same components and produce very high quality knives for hundreds less.

Is the name alone enough to make the knife worth that much more? Or are there real quantifiable advantages over say a high end Spyderco or a ZT? Yes those are still expensive knives, but not in the same price range as a high end CRK or Strider. In the end, knife technology really isn't rocket science, not when you are comparing to other manufactures who use the same quality components, use the same basic locking mechanisms, and still manage to sell them for MUCH less.

Somehow it just seems odd that Sal Glesser isn't producing as precise and high quality of a knife that sells on the street for $300 as Chris Reeve does that sells for $450 - $500.

I don't know. I don't pretend to have any special insight to the industry. But if you think about it, it really IS a large question.

 

[Goosey]

Hahaha

Yup, comparing CRK and Strider is a good way to stir pots

 

[Nullity]

Personally, I like Strider because it's a light and strong knife.
Anyone can make a heavy, hard-use knife.

The integral G10 backspacer/handle-slab is one of my favorite features.
Strider is also known for having a high-quality heat-treat.


A Strider costs $400, so that's what I will pay to own what I want.

If you are buying a knife purely for it's cutting performance, you can spend much less.

 

[Jfoley4]

well the same argument can be used to say a custom knife is not worth $1000 dollars because the $100 knife has the same steel and is a framelock. (or whatever you use to compare the two)
or take car's for example. one can say a VW jetta and a Lamborghini are the same, they are made by the same company (VW owns both) use essentially the same part's but one is expensive and one is cheap. they both go stop turn honk everything you need

but they just arent the same.

Edit to clarify... Some people are perfectly happy to have the cheap knife or car... Others are harder to make happy and will keep getting nicer and more expensive as time goes on.

 

[KrisOK]

Hahaha

Yup, comparing CRK and Strider is a good way to stir pots

Nope, wasn't trying to compare them to each other. Only as a reference cost-wise to other brands. Striders and CRKs are similarly priced.

 

[docbp87]

Interesting that you should mention Sal Glesser making a knife that sells for 300 bucks compared to Strider/CRK... Sal himself has actually said that they can't make a knife with the tolerances and what not as a CRK without it costing at least what a Sebenza costs (this was when the Sage 2 was being compared to the Seb). You're paying for not only materials, but for design, manufacturing, and warranty (which Strider has one of the best of in the industry, bar none).

 

[KrisOK]

well the same argument can be used to say a custom knife is not worth $1000 dollars because the $100 knife has the same steel and is a framelock. (or whatever you use to compare the two)
or take car's for example. one can say a VW jetta and a Lamborghini are the same, they are made by the same company (VW owns both) use essentially the same part's but one is expensive and one is cheap. they both go stop turn honk everything you need

but they just arent the same.

Edit to clarify... Some people are perfectly happy to have the cheap knife or car... Others are harder to make happy and will keep getting nicer and more expensive as time goes on.

OK, so what makes say, a high-end Spyderco a lesser knife than a CRK or Strider? Is it blade geometry? Ergonomics? Heat treatment? Fit and finish? I'm really trying to understand what the differences are that justify the price difference. Not at all bashing CRK or Strider owners. But there HAS to be quantifable differences in quality between that high end Spyderco and the high-end Strider or CRK. Scientific method says that if you can't test for it and quantify the differences, it doesn't exist. If no major quality differences exist between the two then what is left? Hype and reputation?

Again, I don't know.

 

[KrisOK]

Interesting that you should mention Sal Glesser making a knife that sells for 300 bucks compared to Strider/CRK... Sal himself has actually said that they can't make a knife with the tolerances and what not as a CRK without it costing at least what a Sebenza costs (this was when the Sage 2 was being compared to the Seb). You're paying for not only materials, but for design, manufacturing, and warranty (which Strider has one of the best of in the industry, bar none).

Ahhhh... But the street price for a sage 2 when I got mine was only like $140. That's even a BIGGER difference in street prices than the really high end Spidies. Sal actually has came out and said that his high end knives aren't equal to CRK's? I did not know that. This is what I'm trying to figure out, not bash the really high end of the production market.

 

[Jaytaylor]

Build quality, attention to detail, fit and finish and consistency are what set a CRK folder apart from a higher end Spyderco.

 

[Scott Dog]

No it's not a large question and yes this subject has been beat to death on these forums. The market determines price. There are plenty of people out there willing to part with $400-500 and more for these knives. And it isn't rocket science. If CRK and Stridor did not or could not satisfy people that are willing to shell out that kind of money for their products they would have two simple choices, lower the price or go out of business. Simple economics 101 my friend, no need to stir the pot.
I'm waiting for a large left hand carbon fiber 21 Sebenza. It will set me back almost $500. Why? Because I can and I feel it's worth it. I'm not stupid and I'm certainly not alone.:thumbup:

 

[KrisOK]

No it's not a large question and yes this subject has been beat to death on these forums. The market determines price. There are plenty of people out there willing to part with $400-500 and more for these knives. And it isn't rocket science. If CRK and Stridor did not or could not satisfy people that are willing to shell out that kind of money for their products they would have two simple choices, lower the price or go out of business. Simple economics 101 my friend, no need to stir the pot.
I'm waiting for a large left hand carbon fiber 21 Sebenza. It will set me back almost $500. Why? Because I can and I feel it's worth it. I'm not stupid and I'm certainly not alone.:thumbup:

No doubt that there are are alot of people willing to part with their money to buy them. They really ARE fine knives, that I'm not questioning. What I'm questioning what set's them apart from the next tier down the ladder.

Along with collecting knives, I also collect watches. Basically this same debate goes on in that hobby as well. Many swiss made watches are horrendously expensive, Some of these brands use standard or lightly modified ETA (A major movement manufacturer) movements in their construction and common materials. But they still cost thousands of dollars. At the same time, there are a bunch of other swiss made watch brands that don't have the same marketing or brand recognition. Many of these brands use the exact same set of standards in manufacturing, the same base materials, the same CNC machines and even the same ETA movements. They also have to pass the same certification process. But, many of these watches sell for only hundreds of dollars rather than thousands. The same questions of what makes one brand worth so much more than the other arise here as well with people saying the same basic things. Fit and finish is better, attention to detail, etc.... But nobody from the high-end watch companies have proven that they are actually better. They dealt with the situation by buying ETA and choking off the source of movements of the less expensive brands.

Anyway, these questions I'm posing here are to try and determine for myself if there really IS that much quality difference between the top tier production knives and the tier below, or if it's more of a case of brand reconition and what 'Everyone Knows'.

 

[Ankerson]

OK, so what makes say, a high-end Spyderco a lesser knife than a CRK or Strider? Is it blade geometry? Ergonomics? Heat treatment? Fit and finish? I'm really trying to understand what the differences are that justify the price difference. Not at all bashing CRK or Strider owners. But there HAS to be quantifable differences in quality between that high end Spyderco and the high-end Strider or CRK. Scientific method says that if you can't test for it and quantify the differences, it doesn't exist. If no major quality differences exist between the two then what is left? Hype and reputation?

Again, I don't know.

Sal Glesser posted along time ago that if Spyderco tightened up their tolerances to what CRK is their knives would cost the same.

He also said that on the higher end knives the difference is there, it might not be apparent to the naked eye, but it is there.

Strider and CRK get what they get for their knives because the quality is there.

 

[marthinus]

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

[video=youtube;nI_73zvGx5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI_73zvGx5Y[/video]

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
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Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

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Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

 

[jwolf90]

I always love to see that Bob Dozier clip,it kinda shuts everyone up. As well as the several Blade Show Awards(fellow knifemakers do the judging, not the public) so I think they might know a ting or two:thumbup: I like Striders looks but i'm hesitant of getting one b/c the drama about the new lockface having problem's and they don't carburize or carbidize the lockface. I almost pulled the trigger on a CPM 154 smf but backed out b/c of the lockface

 

[KrisOK]

OK, I guess that's the answer I was looking for. I can't argue when the owner of the company who's knives I'm using as a comparison flatly states that CRK builds to higher tollerences than he does. As I said previously, I certainly wasn't inferring that these were less than extremely high quality knives, just exploring the differences that set them apart.

Thanks, guys, I appreciate the dialog without someone trying to rip my head off for daring to question the 'Natural Order' of things.

 

[Ken44]

Great post marthinus.

 

[GronK]

Note: The above responses were primarily regarding the Sebenza and Sal's comments thereof. 'Tain't right to allow Strider to bask in the same glory. Whole 'nother ball of wax, bundle of snakes and bucket of worms down that road.

 

[archieblue]

In my personal day to day life I NEED a knife. Do I NEED a CRK or Strider folder? Probably not. The potential for a variety of possibilities with "X" knife are vast... IF you use it, HOW you use it + a number of potential flaws in the knife's materials or design. With CRK/Strider "potential" is fairly overshadowed by certainty. With CRK it's the fact that 99/100 come out of the shop perfectly built. If you could pick the best of 10 identical Sebenzas you'd be hard pressed to find one with a potentially nagging issue. No other production shop can do this. With Strider you get a "use it like you stole it!" attitude backed by an industry leading (at least for folding knives) warranty. From a design standpoint they are pretty frikkin different, but both for what they are are IMO nearly perfect.

Most production companies start with either an "ideal" design then shave corners to meet a price point or start with a price point and design a knife around that. Companies like CRK/Strider design a knife and build them THEN put an honest price on it with an appropriate sales pitch.

I carry a knife mainly to be prepared. The better the build quality of my knife, the better prepared I am. As far as handle/blade shape, design is a preference. I like Bob Dozier's comment on "stupid designs." IMO that encompasses 90% of today's modern folders. I have to have an in-house made knife (not outsourced) + build quality + a design I like to buy a knife at any price point. There are very few, if any, makers than can scratch my itch for less than $400.

 

[monger4142]

Striders dont come close to the quality of chris reeve knives.

The whole CR/Strider comparison is dated and pointless, there are so many other choices to compare with CR knives now.

 

[Sufler]

CRK lets you take your knives apart, but not flick. Strider doesn't care about flicking, but doesn't want you to take their knives apart.

I've always wanted to say this in a CRK vs. Strider thread. SUCCESS!!!