stock removal

marekz

marekz

Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
1,699
can someone please explain to me the general process of stock removal--here are my thought.
1.make design
2.scribe on flat steeel anealed
3.grind it to shape while dunking it in water
4.drill holes
5.grind edge--flat,hollow
6.put it in a forge to specific heat for the steel then oil quench
7.put knife blade in oven at 300 degrees for 2 hrs then let air cool--repeat 3 times
8.sand it down to desired polish
9.attach bolsters,handle...

i know im probably missing alot but i want to attempt it soon.
i get confused about the heating part, what would happen if it went into a forge that is too hot?
thanks -ps i did read up on it but still need clarification-----mark
 
you've got the basics, draw a knife outline on a piece of steel (you forgot the important decision, what type of steel do you want to use? I would suggest getting in on Aldo's upcoming batch of 1084, there is pretty much no better steel to begin with, he also sells 15N20 which is also almost foolproof)
grind away anything that doesn't look like a knife
work through finer grits to about 400
heat it until just over nonmagnetic (here's here the beauty of 1084 really shows, it is eutechtic so the carbon all goes into solution right around the curie point, you don't need a long soak) plunge it point first into 130 degreeF olive oil
when it comes down to room temperature put it in an oven preheated to 400F for 3 hours, air cool, finish sanding without letting it get too warm to hold onto
put a handle on it, sharpen it, grin like a fool, put a pic up on bladeforums :D start your next one using everything you learned from your mistakes on the first one.

-Page
 
ok but when do you do your convex,hollow or which ever gring befoe quenching or after?with the heating i just crank up a forge stick the entire blade in and then pull it out when it turns reaaly red--then see if a magnet sticks on it--if it doesnt -then stick into a pot of oil that i preheated to 130 degrees on a oven and checked it with a thermameter for the correct temp?--leave the blade in the oil till the whole thing comes down to room temp, and then heat in the oven. it doesnt matter what steel you use as long as it demagnitizes?-do i look for a certain color or is there some kind of chart. it just seems like it would be difficult pulling the blade out to check it against a magnet every few second. im sorry im so off but i want to learn. i have a few books but im still having problems around grinding thee edge and the heating process. thank you sir
 
The first part of your list works out just fine. I prefer to do as much shaping (grinding bevels included) as I can before I heat treat. The reason being that after the heat treatment is done (heating, quenching, tempering) the steel is at its desired hardness and excessive heat beyond your temper will effectively ruin your heat treatment.

You may want to do some research/reading on heat treating. You have a very vague idea of what it is, but you have to realize that every steel has a specific process for heat treatment. Also, if you have no way of regulating the temperature in your forge, you will have a hard time heat treating anything other than the most basic carbon steels (i.e. 1084). Heat treating is the process that turns a piece of steel into a usable knife. Without it, you just have a knife-shaped-object.

Let's say you use some 1084 and make due with what you have (heck, it's what all of us do when we're starting out). Fire up the forge and let it come to temp. Place your 1084 in the forge and watch in carefully. If your forge isn't consistent in temperature throughout, move the steel around in the forge to get more even heating. As the steel begins to glow, pull it out and quickly test with a magnet. Keep heating until the magnet doesn't stick, and then, following a few more seconds in the forge to regain any lost heat, quench in oil.

While this may suffice for 1084, many other knife steels out there have to be held at a consistent temperature over the course of 10-40+ minutes. This is necessary to get all carbon and alloying elements into solution so you create a fully hardened blade during the quench. The more complex the steel, usually the longer the soak at temperature. Also, non-magnetic is just an initial indicator. For something like 18XX series, it may work fairly well, but many steels have a critical temperature above the curie point. This means you have to keep heating after non-magnetic and then hold that temperature for several minutes. This becomes a problem because with excessive heat (easy to achieve in a non-regulated forge), you get very rapid grain growth beyond a certain point which causes the steel to become weak relative to a correctly hardened blade. Judging temperature by eye is something that takes years of experience and consistent lighting. Overall, unless you're a well sooted blacksmith, I'd avoid using temp to determine temperature. It can give you an idea, but only that. If you can, get a shielded K-type thermocouple designed for kilns/forges and a pyrometer and install it into your forge so you'll have a better idea of what temps you're dealing with.

I'm not trying to discourage you, because all of us start somewhere, but I'm encouraging you to use the steel that best matches the equipment that you have for heat treatment, and realize that there is no magic recipe for heat treatments. Each steel has a very specific process that must be followed without too much variation to get the most out of the steel. Also, each steel has a different set of tempering temperatures in order to achieve varying degrees of hardness. Start somewhere, but then learn as much as you can. This is a great place to do that.

Let us know what steel, specifically, you are interested in working if it is not 1084, and we can give you some advice.

Good luck and have fun!

--nathan
 
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im interested right now in o1,d2,a2,ans ats-34. i im purchsing a forge at the end of the month. i have aroud $400 or so dollars to spend on a forge. im trying to research which forge i should get. i guess one with a temp regulator. but specifically i have a 1/8 x 1 1/2 x 36 of o1, and a bar of a-2. but i am definetly starting with the o1. thanks for any help, and can you recc a forge. thanks im looking at a site called Darren Ellis Sells http://refractory.elliscustomknifeworks.com/
 
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I'd recommend picking one steel and sticking with it until you really know it. Then you can add other types of steels. O-1 is a great starter steel in my opinion and it's still my primary steel, though I'm adding 154CM to the mix.

Whatever forge you get, I would definitely recommend a thermocouple and pyrometer. With a well built forge, you should be able to control temperature fairly well by controlling gas and airflow. Well enough to do O-1 for sure. I started with O-1 with nothing more than a one-brick propane forge and a magnet.

For O-1, you need to bring temperature up to around 1475 and hold it there for 10-15 minutes. This is above curie point just a bit (nonmagnetic), so it's tricky to only use a magnet. You'll probably be able to get the steel somewhat hard by going a bit hotter than curie point and attempting to hold at temp for just a couple of minutes, but the best response follows a 10-15 minute hold at temperature. After than, quench in 130 degree oil and temper twice at 400 degrees.

--nathan
 
My advice is grind to the best of your current ability, then go through all the steps to the end. Meaning make a knife, sheath(optional) use it and then keep it. You will get better, you have a completed knife and you will look at it and be reminded of all the experience you have going thru the whole process.

Welcome to a fun hobby.
 
Buy some CR1095 from Admiral grind your butt off and have someone heat treat it for you. It is cheaper than O1 to start but 100x easier than any 1080HR or 1084HR that you have to piss away 10 belts just to get the scales and junk off the stock to start. I purchased over $200 of 1080 and sold it 3 days later as I was sick of trying to remove all the scales off it.
 
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the paaragon looks sweet, but out of range. There was a previous post/thread about a product you put on your steel with an exact melting point of the temp you want,-so you would just have to watch when it melts the temp has been achieved.it also will resolidify when the temp falls below the original fixed temp. there were different bottles for different temps up to 2,000 degrees. What can i expect to happen when i stick the very hot blade into the 130 degree olive oil. Lots of smoke??---I will definetly try the CR 1095 from admiral thanks for the recc.
 
jll346 said:
Buy some CR1095 from Admiral grind your *** off and have someone heat treat it for you. It is cheaper than O1 to start but 100x easier than any 1080HR or 1084HR that you have to piss away 10 belts just to get the scales and shit off the stock to start. I purchased over $200 of 1080 and sold it 3 days later as I was sick of trying to remove all the shit off it.
Click to expand...

and THAT is one reason why I do not buy from Admiral Steel (also they are overpriced and their service sucks)
the last batch of 1084 I got from Aldo had almost no scale, his 15n20 should have no scale
email him (njsteelbaron@gmail.com) and see what he's got
when you are starting out you want simple inexpensive good steel that's easy to work with that will make a good knife. 1084 is good for that, 5160 is good for that 15n20 is good, 1095 is a little more challenging to heat treat as you have to hold it at temp for 15+ minutes and then you have less than 1 second to get it in the oil
save the more complex high alloy steels for when you have more experience, learn your techniques with inexpensive easy steels, then move on to the other stuff

-Page
 
I think the main reason the paragon was suggested is because you want to do so many air hardening steels. Of the four you listed, O-1 is the only one that can be reasonably heat treated in a forge (although some folks are going to say A2 as well). Even the O1 would benefit quite a bit from an oven. I think you want 10xx series steel if you will heat treat with a forge.

Imo, 1095 isn't better to start with, the scale issue doesn't have to do with the series, but the make. I have some old admiral 1084 stock that is as clean as any 1095 I've seen, several people here have said that the 1084 that is sold by Mace and Aldo has little scale. I also don't have to go through several belts to clean the scale off of the 1080 and 1084 I buy from Kelly Cupples, it just take a couple minutes for me. 1095 is much easier to over heat and more difficult to harden in just any old oil.
 
Yeah, when you venture into the heat treating of stainless steels, you are looking at temperatures hovering around 2000* with soak times of 30-45 minutes. Hard to achieve accurately in a forge.

If stock removal is your choice, it might behove you to spring for a heat treating oven (if you really want to perform your own heat treating) over a forge.

--nathan
 
i had to punch in the adress for sugar creek kilns. ill try to post http://www.sugarcreekind.com/the-jim-bowie-knife-kiln-p-2808.html

anyone else ever used one of these or heard anything about it. thanks mark





Click to enlarge

Good Kilns has applied it's kiln manufacturing skills to produce a new and affordable way for the knife maker to heat-treat and temper almost any knife blades. Chamber dimensions are 10-3/4" (D) x 8-3/4" (W) x 4-1/2" (H). The kiln operates with an infinite switch and pyrometer. Electrical requirements: 120V 13 Amp 1560 Watts. This easy to use oven, end opens for easy loading and unloading. Kiln comes with stand and two extra firebrick, ready to slot, one--one for the heat treating process, and one for cooling the blade after it is removed from the oven. Truck shipped.
 
Most of my knives get heat treated in one of these, they are not bad ovens. The 110V version can be a little slow to come up to high temps, but I don't think it's terrible. If you can't afford to get a digitally controlled one, you'll be able to do a decent job with the analogue one (especially working with carbon steel) and then you can upgrade that later on.
 
can you get a digital controlled one with the sugar creek. i may get the biiger one, i dont see where it comes with a digital option. can you install a digital control to one of these units.? if so do you know where i can get a digital controller?
 
also can someone explain a bit further about the "scales". is that a covering around the steel that has to be taken off. ive heard it mentioned often-i looked at my barstock of O-1 i dont see any " scales". thank yall much over much
 
O-1 comes precision ground almost exclusively. That means it has been ground to a precision thickness from the supplier and has a nice clean finish. Many other steels come in a hot rolled or cold rolled form. This means there is a covering often referred to as "mill scale" which is usually a dark grey color with pits and etc. This needs to be ground off to make a well finished knife. Because many steels have this "scale," they are often sold slightly oversized to account for the removal of the surface to a uniform surface.

BTW, there are a number of steels that can be purchased in precision or flat ground form. Check out flatground.com or your other steel suppliers. Just makes life easier for a stock remover to not have to flatten your steel first.

--nathan
 
that makes sense--thank you mr. silver plate----does anyone know about the previous stated question.--does the sugar creek bigger heat furnace/kiln come with a digital control. if not is the analogue control really that much more difficult or just less conveniant. and can i switch the anologue control out for a digital on that unit. i been trying to call them but noone is answering today. thank you---mark
 
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