Stop pin, or blade kick?

[Misplaced Hillbilly]

So who makes or made traditional knives with stop pins? I don't think I have ever seen one. But there are a lot of knives, I haven't seen.

O.B.

I voted against stop pins because I've never seen a traditional knife with one and assume it's probably these recently popular borderline knives that I'm not into.

The Rough Ryder reserve series has stop pins. And while some aren't quite traditional in design most are still constructed traditionally, just with the addition of a stop pin. My Kershaw culpepper jack has one as well,otherwise its pretty traditional in construction.
(Bolsters were fluted by me btw)

 

[Alex.Y.]

If we talk about traditional knives (and we obviously do), then a kick is my choice. Yes, stopping pins work fine, but that's not a traditional element, and they just don't feel (and sound) right when the blade is shut.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'd mentioned earlier, I had some of A.G. Russell's knives with a stop pin. It occurred to me later, I also have a Moore Maker double lockback large trapper identical to a previously-existing Camillus pattern and (I'm pretty sure) contracted to Camillus for its manufacture under the Moore Maker brand. They contracted Camillus for several other of their patterns. The Camillus double lockback pattern was patented in 1991 and also included the stop pin under both blades, as seen in the 2nd pic below:

 

[DavidZ]

I just checked all of my slippies, and all but two have stop pins.
My Kershaw Brandywine and my Spyderco UK penknife.
The Spyderco has a different spring mechanism. The "back spring" is split the top part doesn't move. Different for sure.

 

[JM2]

I prefer a kick. It looks right.

 

[Will Power]

If it stops rapping, whatever it is, it's good

 

[DavidZ]

The one obvious advantage I see in the stop pin, is that it'll guarantee the blade can't overtravel during a hard, snapping closure. Sometimes, even blades with effective kicks on them can still travel too far momentarily with the spring's overtravel, if the blade is allowed to snap shut hard. I hadn't realized this difference until I'd acquired a few of A.G. Russell's knives with the stop pin. And I do have at at least one or two knives that'll overtravel and allow the blade edge to contact the backspring, if they're snapped shut too aggressively. I even have one multi-hundred dollar custom lockback that will also overtravel on a hard closure and damage the blade edge on the back of the lockbar. When I first acquired that knife, it had the coolest 'ring' to it when allowing the blade to snap shut. But I eventually realized that sound was from the blade's thinly-ground edge colliding with the lockbar.

Very good point. Also, with just the kick option, you can in larger knives press on the back of the blade when closed and contact the back spring. I even remember this on my old Buck 110, even though it's a lock back, and not a slippie. Now that I think about it, I have seen some people put a piece of leather or other material on the inside of the spring to act as a soft area for the cutting edge to contact, just in case.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Very good point. Also, with just the kick option, you can in larger knives press on the back of the blade when closed and contact the back spring. I even remember this on my old Buck 110, even though it's a lock back, and not a slippie. Now that I think about it, I have seen some people put a piece of leather or other material on the inside of the spring to act as a soft area for the cutting edge to contact, just in case.

Yes, I've 'tested' some of mine doing that. Can gauge by the resistance felt, if it's weak and might have a significant risk of overtravel doing damage. I have another one stashed away somewhere - it's kind of a shoddily-built knife and a prime example of a lot of things done badly in making it. Blade has a lot side-to-side play and it also rests too closely to the backspring when closed. If I squeeze it just a tiny bit, I can feel the edge grinding laterally against the backspring. Makes me cringe.

 

[Sean Yaw]

I made a couple dozen slipjoints with a kick before I made one with a stop pin. There is a very distinct sound that blade rap makes and can be a real momentum buster when making a knife. The thing I did not like about the stop pin was that closing the knife made the blade rap sound, and I just could not get comfortable hearing that.

I thought about making that knife with a primary kick and stop pin backup, since the guy that wanted the knife wanted to use the spine to strike a ferro rod, the kick would be the primary defense against blade rap, but the stop pin would prevent compressing the edge into the spring when using the ferro rod. I just did the stop pin instead.

 

[5K Qs]

I'm not particular about kicks, blade stop pins or nothing..... Depends on the knife. You forgot one category, endemic to European patterns of old....... Tip resting in blade well.
View attachment 2000797View attachment 2000798

The blade tip on this knife, and many others like it, rests on its edge in the blade well. One thing I learned is to ease that blade shut! No fear of slapping a spring!

Coincidentally, on Sunday I ordered a French knife ("a classic farm worker knife") whose description spells this out:
The blade doesn’t have a kick, the tip rests on the back spring. This allows extensive sharpening without the tip overhanging out of the handle once folded (proud tip).
I'm curious to see how I get along with the knife. I think I'll be OK, since I'm not usually a "let it slam" knife closer.

- GT

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I did some more digging through some of my stashed-away knives. I earlier referenced a Camillus-made large double lockback trapper, branded for Moore Maker. It's a nicely constructed knife with good attention to the important details of function (tight, no blade play, good centering & alignment) and cosmetics (flush finish, etc).

I dug out two more examples of the same knife made for Moore Maker. But the caveat being they were made by a different contractor to be unnamed for now, though I'm betting many here know who it was (I do) - AFTER Camillus had closed up shop in the USA. The difference between these two later examples, and the earlier one made by Camillus, points to the importance of good execution in manufacturing making all the difference. Both of the later versions have identical faults: in both of them, the secondary large spey blade's tip STILL COMES TO REST AGAINST THE BUTT-END OF THE LOCK BAR, despite the inclusion of the stop pin under the tangs. I see dents in the sharpened edge in exactly the same spot, near the tip, on both of them. And I can feel the edge grind against the lockbar if I move the blade laterally in the blade well with my fingers. I also noticed the tip of the spey rests slightly just above the liners when closed. Yuck...

All of this is to say: Execution is EVERYTHING. Doesn't matter if it's a kick or a stop pin. If either is executed right, there should never be any worries about blade edges rapping against the backspring / lockbar. If either is executed poorly, then there will be problems.

I might post up some pics later, of the bad ones. But I can hardly bring myself to look at them right now. I had seen some of these faults years ago, after buying these knives through a secondhand source. And I'm reminded again, as to why they've stayed stashed away.

 

[I'mSoSharp]

No preferences for me, if a blade of mine ever snaps shut it's because it's slipped out of my fingers or I have to shut it one handed, which is pretty rare, even then I'll cushion it by using my thumb on the side of the blade.
I open my sprung folders with both hands & that's how I close them.

 

[Gary W. Graley]

I voted for either method, but then I usually close my blades softly by hand anyways. This Chambriard made folder has neither pin nor kick, but a small 'ramp' that is on the back spring for the base of the blades' tang to rest on to keep the edge above the rest of the back spring, BUT, isn't there always one even with this method, you really want to close this by hand otherwise the momentum will drive the blade down into the back spring resulting in a flat spot on the blade.

Here's the knife;

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

and some closeups

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

and down inside you can just make out the bit of raised portion on the back spring between the two arrows

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

G2

 

[DavidZ]

Fantastic photos as usual Gary. Thank you. The lines on that knife are beautiful. You always have the most interesting cutlery.

 

[Tyson A Wright]

I can go either way. My single most-carried knife this year was my Benchmade Proper, which has a stop pin, but all of my other knives have kicks. I probably slightly lean towards kicks, just because they are simpler and more traditional, but the lean is slight, here - it would never impact whether or not I'd be interested in a particular knife.

One note: some people on here are saying that the kick is better because you can file it to lower the tip back into the blade well as it gets sharpened. This is true, sort of. You can adjust the kick, and if you sharpen it enough times you will need to. But you can theoretically adjust the stop pin as well, by filing the notch in the blade deeper, so that is not an advantage of the kick over the stop pin - either can be filed to adjust the tip height.

At least on the Proper, it is highly unlikely that this would ever be needed, since more than 2/3rds of the blade are in the well. To sharpen it to the point where the tip was not covered would mean that you've sharpened the blade into a tiny sliver. The kick allows you to solve the tip coming out of the well, but the stop pin means that this isn't going to be a problem in the first place. So, if adjusting for tip height is your concern, I would argue that you are better served by a stop pin than by a kick.

The arrows show how high up this would need to be sharpened before you'd need to worry about it - it's almost at the top of the bevel. (Plus, the blade is S30V steel, so it doesn't need to be sharpened as often as a simpler, less wear-resistant steel.) Even if this continues to be my most-carried knife for the rest of my life, I don't know that I will ever need to adjust it for tip height when closed.