Stop using "rat-tail" to describe non-chiruwa!

K

killa_concept

Joined
May 19, 2009
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I just had to post this after seeing it done countless times.

It's a pet peeve of mine when people suggest that the non-chiruwa models are somehow weaker/worse. I believe this is in part due to members referring to non-chiruwa HI kukris as "rat-tail." Rat-tail brings to memory cheap decorative swords. Why? It is due to "rat-tail" meaning that the tang does not pass all the way through the handle and that the tang is welded, rather than forged, to the actual blade (both of which are not true about HI's "rat-tail" models). The correct term is "hidden" or "narrow" tang - Wikipedia it. "Rat-tail" has a bad connotations and we should avoid using it if we want to truly support HI and the kamis back in Nepal

That being said, one could actually argue hidden/narrow tang design lends itself to kukris. The design balances weight forward which is what makes kukris such powerful choppers, it has less potential for hot spots due to a lack of exposed metal on the handle, and doesn't it sacrifice much structural integrity over full tang design unless large lateral stress is placed on the blade (which will NEVER happen during a kukri's intended usage - i.e. a chopper and not a pry bar).
 
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Wolf_1989 said:
I usually call that an internal tang.
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I was speaking in general - "rat-tail" seems to be how most people refer to the design when it comes up. People need to differentiate between rat-tail and hidden/narrow as they are not synonymous.

For example, this review of an HI Ang Khola said:

"I remembered reading somewhere that Khukuris had a full tang, but I found a picture on the HI site that showed a Khukuri with what looked suspiciously like a Rat Tail (Stick, Hidden) Tang. The tang is one area of a blade that I will absolutely and positively be a snob about. I e-mailed Yangdu and asked her if I could send the AK Khukuri back and get two Chiruwa Ang Khola because I would be more comfortable with a full tang. "
 
Good post Killa. New people may get the wrong idea if rat-tail is used. I've always liked using the term alligator-tail better. Khuks with hidden tangs are the norm and are very strong. I've never had one break even with some lateral stress to split wood.
 
they're the same thing no matter what you call it, it's just a matter of people needing to understand there will be different levels of quality for anything.

A $15 katana can have a full tang, I still ain't gonna hit anything with it. With that said, I personally do have a fondness for everything being full tang.
 
You make a good point. For newbies a "rat tang" or non full tang, whatever you wish to call it, is seen as a negative. The truth is that the hidden tang on a HI khukuri is an exceptionally strong design and not inferior to the chiruwa design.
My best and most treasured handmade knives are all hidden tang.
 
This could probably bve easily handled by posting one of the pictures of the unhandled blades that Yangdu occasionaly has available sothat it is visible how the Kamis work a hidden tang. This would leave little doubt as to the strength of H.I's hidden tangs.

These tangs are incredibly strong and actualy improve the hndling chacteristics of the kukri's which use them.
 
Chiruwa, Rat Tail, and Half Tang are the three styles of khukuri handle base frames familiar to me.
Chiruwa for me is basically handle slabs attached to a full handle shaped tang.
Rat Tail I see as a long thck (kangaroo tail for HI)tang that has a peined keeper on the end of the handle.
Half tang is the only type I can think of at HI that doesn't reach the end of the handle.
My most favored khuks are all Rat Tail Tang! I love em!!:thumbup:
 
100eyes said:
they're the same thing no matter what you call it, it's just a matter of people needing to understand there will be different levels of quality for anything.

A $15 katana can have a full tang, I still ain't gonna hit anything with it. With that said, I personally do have a fondness for everything being full tang.
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This is true, but it's fact that people associate words with certain experiences. Almost everyone will probably agree that "rat-tail" carries certain negative connotations for them. It is after all, the most commonly used tang type in cheap chinese fixed blades. In fact, I'll bet you'd have a hard time linking me to a $15 katana with a full tang...

AF said:
You make a good point. For newbies a "rat tang" or non full tang, whatever you wish to call it, is seen as a negative. The truth is that the hidden tang on a HI khukuri is an exceptionally strong design and not inferior to the chiruwa design.
My best and most treasured handmade knives are all hidden tang.
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This is my exact point - people assume that the tang is weak, and this idea is further reinforced by the term "rat-tail" which, if googled, is DEFINED as not going all the way through the handle and generally being welded rather than forged. Not only is there a negative stigma already surrounding the term, but if someone researches it by doing a search, they'll come to the wrong conclusion.

wildmike said:
This could probably bve easily handled by posting one of the pictures of the unhandled blades that Yangdu occasionaly has available sothat it is visible how the Kamis work a hidden tang. This would leave little doubt as to the strength of H.I's hidden tangs.

These tangs are incredibly strong and actualy improve the hndling chacteristics of the kukri's which use them.
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Well I agree that someone definitely needs to be stickied to dispel the foul air surrounding the style.... whether it be an explanation or picture of the craftmanship that goes behind narrow/hidden tangs.

ArchAngel said:
Chiruwa, Rat Tail, and Half Tang are the three styles of khukuri handle base frames familiar to me.
Chiruwa for me is basically handle slabs attached to a full handle shaped tang.
Rat Tail I see as a long thck (kangaroo tail for HI)tang that has a peined keeper on the end of the handle.
Half tang is the only type I can think of at HI that doesn't reach the end of the handle.
My most favored khuks are all Rat Tail Tang! I love em!!:thumbup:
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That's my issue though. Google "rat-tail tang" and the first entry will be a Wikipedia Article on swords which states:

In the case of a rat-tail tang, the maker welds a thin rod to the end of the blade at the crossguard; this rod goes through the grip (in 20th century and later construction). This occurs most commonly in decorative replicas, or cheap sword-like objects. Traditional sword-making does not use this construction method, which does not serve for traditional sword usage as the sword can easily break at the welding point.
 
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The thing to note about these "rat tail" tangs on H.I. khukuris is if you ever see one, you will see that at the bolster, it is almost as wide as the blade is at the ricasso :eek:

My first H.I. khukuri is a 20" Ang Khola. It's not a chiruwa model. I've used it a lot and used it heavy and it's just as solid as it was when I bought it.

A chiruwa handle is stronger, but how strong does it need to be? I have a Camillus KaBar clone I've been using for over 20 years and the tang is still holding up just fine... and the tang on that one is puny compared to the tang found in H.I. khukuris. I have a cheap Indian Windlass khukuri with an internal tang; I shattered the wooden handle on it but the tang is still nice and solid - again it's nowhere near as substantial as the tangs on H.I. blades.
 
I prefer the chiruwa handled khuks myself. I never perceived the "rat-tail" tang itself to be weak, but I did wonder how strong the union between the handle & blade was.

Then someone posted this link in another thread here:

http://www.daverishar.com/Rehandle/Rehandle.html

This shows the effort that it takes to separate the handle from the knife, and also shows how substantial the tang is. Now I'd have no reservations about owning a "rat-tail" tanged HI khuk.
 
Hmm, I've been calling 'em "hidden" and "through-tangs" myself.

As per the strength debate, there doesn't seem to be any way to verbally convince chiruwa fanatics that the hidden tangs will hold up under heavy use. No matter how well constructed something is, someone can always use the "what if" scenario to justify (to them at least) more and more overbuilt or elaborate construction.
 
SilverFoxKnows said:
Maybe capybara-tail would offend less?;)
Frank
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possum tail :)

and it's a myth of large proportions to state that this non-chiruwa tailed khukris swing/use better than their chiruwa kin.

i've had example of both that were perfect in all ways in balance and form, and again, some of both that didn't.

the current bone cutters for instance are full-tang chopping BEASTS... and are full tang baby. they work like much heavier khuks, and can be swung with a force that inspires amazing confidence.

HI's Rat Tail is not some other company's rat tail. it's a forged single piece of the same metal and very strong. it would be better to correct the wikipedia entry that some poor examples of swords used a welded on tail, not a true FORGED tail ;) no, really. the power of words. in all my time i've never heard one complain from newbies or old timers on this particular issue. can't take a single bad period of use and nomenclature and stop using the term across the industry just due to some bad apples.

in fact, that tail is sometimes too robust. i know that back in Nepal, they consider the handle to be a replaceable component, and do so. well, over here, they still crack, split, and break sometimes, but replacing one well is a pain in the butt ;) metal is strong than wood.

thus. i have both some of the stoutest full tang models, and many hidden tang models.

my biggest worry is the stress riser from the cho on some models, but well, they rarely break, so obviously the Kamis know what they are doing.


Bladite
 
I'm accustomed to "through-tang," as well, but it seems that the solution is to learn the Nepalese word for it, the same way we use chiruwa to describe a riveted, "full-tang" handle.
 
Nicholas said:
I'm accustomed to "through-tang," as well, but it seems that the solution is to learn the Nepalese word for it, the same way we use chiruwa to describe a riveted, "full-tang" handle.
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Best suggestion I've heard that far! I definitely agree :thumbup:
 
killa_concept said:
This is true, but it's fact that people associate words with certain experiences. Almost everyone will probably agree that "rat-tail" carries certain negative connotations for them. It is after all, the most commonly used tang type in cheap chinese fixed blades. In fact, I'll bet you'd have a hard time linking me to a $15 katana with a full tang...
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I'm nine dollars over budget with this admittedly, but it's built from high quality 440 stainless for hard use. :) If you don't mind a straight blade I can get you in there for under $12. The curve seems to increase the price.

There's plenty of less-durable full tang cutlery out there. Why is it that there's no stigma attached to this style of tang as well?

I have enough faith in the average potential HI customer to figure out the difference on their own, or to ask here if they can't. If this is a demonstrable problem however it should be addressed. One solution that may be more effective would to put a post together detailing the three tang styles primarily used by HI, possibly touching on the perceived advantages and drawbacks associated with each, and discussing the other differences in construction between an HI khukuri and a wallhanger. Said post could then be stickied here and possibly repeated on HI's website.

Or, we could try to make everyone change the terminology that they use, past, present, and future. I'm not sure that this is possible.
 
You go Killa! I've been here since May of '99 and have been arguing in favor of the hidden tangs almost ever since the day I started.:thumbup: :D
If they were somehow inferior too the Chiruwa or exposed tanged khukuris they would never have been used. Let alone all the old swords, daggers, and knives that were actually used a helluva lot harder than what most of us use blades for today.....

And I feel just as strongly about the damned so-called "Habaki" bolsters! IMO they're just pretty damned useless for keeping a khukuri tight in its scabbard and besides that IMO I think the damned things are just downright ugly! :barf: :rolleyes:


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