Stop using "rat-tail" to describe non-chiruwa!

[killa_concept]

I'm nine dollars over budget with this admittedly, but it's built from high quality 440 stainless for hard use. If you don't mind a straight blade I can get you in there for under $12. The curve seems to increase the price.

There's plenty of less-durable full tang cutlery out there. Why is it that there's no stigma attached to this style of tang as well?

I have enough faith in the average potential HI customer to figure out the difference on their own, or to ask here if they can't. If this is a demonstrable problem however it should be addressed. One solution that may be more effective would to put a post together detailing the three tang styles primarily used by HI, possibly touching on the perceived advantages and drawbacks associated with each, and discussing the other differences in construction between an HI khukuri and a wallhanger. Said post could then be stickied here and possibly repeated on HI's website.

Or, we could try to make everyone change the terminology that they use, past, present, and future. I'm not sure that this is possible.

Got me there, but I still stand by my statement that 95% of cheapo chinese decorative fixed-blade knives and swords are rat-tail hence why most people associate "rat-tail" with a similar, negative view. Association aside, "rat-tail" is still defined as either not going all the way through the handle or being welded to the blade hence why it is the incorrect term - just look at the results on the first page after googling "rat tail tang"

Do I have faith that most potential HI buyers are smart enough to ask? You bet! But do I think that most people are initially repelled upon seeing "rat-tail" to describe HI kukris? A big Yes! Changing terminologies would not be that difficult - just stop use "rat-tail" to incorrectly describe knives that are actually narrow-tang from now on. I definitely agree with you on one point though: A sticky explaining the tang designs would be greatly beneficial!

You go Killa! I've been here since May of '99 and have been arguing in favor of the hidden tangs almost ever since the day I started.:thumbup:
If they were somehow inferior too the Chiruwa or exposed tanged khukuris they would never have been used. Let alone all the old swords, daggers, and knives that were actually used a helluva lot harder than what most of us use blades for today.....

And I feel just as strongly about the damned so-called "Habaki" bolsters! IMO they're just pretty damned useless for keeping a khukuri tight in its scabbard and besides that IMO I think the damned things are just downright ugly! :barf:


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Well the chiruwa style is admittedly stronger - I would never argue that. Whether the added integrity is really necessary for a kukri is debatable. I personally say no, as a full tang just moves the weakest point to the cho should large stress be placed on the blade. Whether the cho or narrow tang is the weaker point in the traditional design is another question.... If we're willing to sacrifice the narrow tang to increase the blade's integrity, why not remove the cho as well? Same concept right - compromise traditional design in favor of practicality? The same goes for the "habaki" bolster, with which I am in agreement to your opinion, though more due to compromise in tradition than actual aesthetics.

Anyways, I don't really want to start this debate as it's not my point for this thread. Different people will have different interpretations and that's alright! It's great that HI offers the chiruwa option to those who want it and I'd hate to see them stop. What I have an issue with is the use of "rat-tail" to describe the tang style - it's the wrong term and carries bad connotations. There should definitely be some sort of sticky regarding the subject

 

[Duzzy]

I'm rather intrigued that you linked to the review on MCB and not the one here in the Forum.

Anyways, this is the way I learned tangs:

Stub, Half, and False Tangs: Hidden tangs that are smaller than the handle/blade and do not run the length of the handle.

Hidden, Through, and Rat-Tail Tangs: These are tangs that are smaller than the handle/blade but run the length of the handle and are secured at the end. (Some are pinned some are not.)

Full Tang: These tangs are the same size as the handle and can either be the same thickness or can thin out as the reach the end of the handle. (I've yet to see one without pins, but I suppose it's possible.)

I've also heard mention of a "Wrapped Tang" which is a "full" sized tang wrapped in an over-sized handle.

However, I guess it depends on what your goal is. The CAKs were my first HI purchase and I wanted the "full tang" because I was buying an unknown product. I'd read good reviews by people who sounded like they knew their stuff--but I can write an intelligent sounding review that's full of drivel. I couldn't find any pictures with a clear view to see how the tang was constructed. In my mind a poorly constructed "full tang" is better than a poorly constructed "hidden tang" so... I went with the "full tang".

Also, if something ever happens to the handle I can fix, modify, or change it easier myself when they're slabs than I can a full handle. I know that HI has a warranty, but realistically, HI may not be around if/when my handle goes bad.

Calling a "Hidden Tang" a "Rat-Tail Tang" has never suggested poor construction to me. I judge quality by price point to be frank, which may not be any better for judging a blade, but that's what I do. My Leatherman doesn't have a tang, nor does my SAK, and I have yet to break either of them. And in my mind I know that I don't need it, but my preference is still for the Chiruwa style tang.

The Hidden Tang didn't stop me from purchasing from HI, it just made me purchase something else. If someone won't buy HI because of the tang style are they really the kind of customers that HI wants? Do you want blades sold on diction or reputation?

(Diction is not the word I want, but I can't think of the word I want at current moment.)

 

[Yvsa]

Well the chiruwa style is admittedly stronger - I would never argue that.

That's where you and and I disagree. The hidden tang has been used for thousands of years very satisfactorily and on tools and weapons that saw really brutal use..... Had the hidden tang been weaker or inferior to an exposed tang they would never have been used.

The same goes for the "habaki" bolster, with which I am in agreement to your opinion, though more due to compromise in tradition than actual aesthetics.

My point about the habaki bolster has always been that why have a thin sheet of brass or white metal cover a critical junction of a blade when it would be covered with wood and laha which would actually contribute to the knife's strength and absorb shock that the thin metal cannot.

Anyways, I don't really want to start this debate as it's not my point for this thread

I understand, just wanted to make my points clear once again. :thumbup:

I also agree that using the Nepali term for the hidden tang would help solve a lot of the misunderstanding around it.

I also agree with Dave Rishar that it's probably an impossible task.

And I also agree that HI ought to make both for those who mistakenly insist that an exposed tang knife is stronger and the same with the so-called habaki bolsters. Different strokes for different folks is what makes the world go round.

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[Duzzy]

Had the hidden tang been weaker or inferior to an exposed tang they would never have been used.

To assume that people won't do something stupid , or that they will always choose the best option, seems rather silly in my mind.

People do all kinds of stupid because they think that it makes them cool, or fashionable, or because they just don't know any better.

 

[Bladite]

Well the chiruwa style is admittedly stronger - I would never argue that.
That's where you and and I disagree. The hidden tang has been used for thousands of years very satisfactorily and on tools and weapons that saw really brutal use..... Had the hidden tang been weaker or inferior to an exposed tang they would never have been used.

That's where you and and I disagree. The hidden tang has been used for thousands of years very satisfactorily and on tools and weapons that saw really brutal use..... Had the hidden tang been weaker or inferior to an exposed tang they would never have been used.

so, here's the thing from my understanding...

full-tang, HAS to be stronger, there's more material, more surface area, and just plain MORE. that's all. compare a 1/2 inch thick steel rod to a 1 inch steel rod. one of those is stronger all around... just stronger, not *better*

now, what makes one of them better over the other?

o various non full tang (NFT) handles use less metal - this is GOOD from the POV of the maker and supplies used to be short

o NFT for non chopping blades, including many swords just don't need the full on strength that a FT posses, as well, there's an issue of balance; most of these tools want to have forward balance, which means a reduction of metal in the handle, qed, eh?

o NFT as typical with HI khukris/etc make it pretty easy for a field repair that let's you keep going and going, just make a fire, and burn a new handle in, glue and go. though, of course, with a small section of branch, and some cord, and a pin, i'm betting i could make a pretty good FT handle in short order as well (as long as the tang is not tapered esp), over the long term though, NFT type is probably generally easier to deal with...

o comfort, no exposed metal on the NFT probably means you can easily customize the handle for a variety of hand sizes and needs trivially. just try removing metal on a FT handle in the field. you'll be there a long time with that rock.

o imho, a GOOD FT handle takes MORE skill to make. especially to make it tapered; and such a tapered handle is going to take more time to make a handle for. now, in the long run, such a handle is not as likely to fail as a NFT handle might.

so, in summary, both have good points and bad points, but the full tang IS stronger. if we want to put a number of your khuks in a wood lined vise, and measure the bending strengths vertical and horiztonally, send them along and i'll do my best no promises


Bladite

 

[Wolf_1989]

I think a lot of the issue is null so long as the internal tang in question is made properly and to adequate proportions.

For example the tang on my ol' reliable Camillus 'KaBar' is .5" wide. The blade is 1.25" wide. That means the tang is about 1/3 as wide as the blade. I've noticed on all the really well made internal tang blades I own, the tangs are 1/3 as wide as the blade, if not a little more.

A .5" wide internal tang on the KaBar is quite adequate. If it were not, my KaBar's tang surely would have failed years ago. I think she'll be good to go for at least another twenty years.

On the other hand, a .5" internal tang on a 20" Ang Khola more than likely would fail. The proportion is wrong. As I posted before, H.I.'s internal tangs are well beyond the 1/3 ratio. They're more like 3/4 or better. That's more than adequate. I have absolute faith in them. I think the chiruwa tang is marginally stronger, but not to a degree that the user would ever notice. I really don't have a preference between the two. The internal tang doesn't transmit as much shock into your hand when chopping, but the chiruwa handle IMO provides better balance due to the extra weight in the handle.

 

[kronckew]

i only have two kukhuri with full tang chiruwa' style grips, one of which is an early 20th c. model, the other a later ww1 model - neither are HI. both have the 'full' tang substantially thinned down tapering abruptly thru the bolster area from the blade spine thickness then more gradually to quite thin at the pommel and i suspect thus do not have any more cross sectional area than the equivalent HI kangaroo tail hidden tang. i am not going to disassemble my HI kukris to check the hidden tang cross sectional areas tho. , i leave it to those with hi chiruwa's to comment on any distal tapering of the tang.

the rivet hole in the full tang reduces the cross section at that point even more. the blacksmiths of southeast asia were well aware of full tang knives and swords, as well as the substantial partial tangs of japanese swords, which are held in place by a small bamboo peg rather than laha. no one seems to complain about a japanese katana with a partial tang held only by a 1/4 in. bamboo peg. of course the katana has a legendary mistique about it that the more mundane but more used kukhuri does not.

 

[Yvsa]

full-tang, HAS to be stronger, there's more material, more surface area, and just plain MORE. that's all. compare a 1/2 inch thick steel rod to a 1 inch steel rod. one of those is stronger all around... just stronger, not *better*


Bladite

Bladite with all due respect from my point of view to compare a 1/2" thick steel bar to a 1" steel bar isn't the same as comparing the HI hidden tang to the HI exposed tang.
Granted that the HI hidden tang is a bit smaller than the handle at the junction of tang and blade but the hidden tang is the same exact thickness of the blade. And of course the hidden tang is considerably smaller where it exits the top of the handle but not a lot of strength is needed there.
With the exposed tang there is a much longer and thinner junction where the blade becomes the tang so as far as there being more steel there I don't see where it would come from.

Too break my position down to the bare bones I'm simply saying that the exposed tang is not any stronger than the hidden tang.
I wouldn't be surprised that if a hidden tang was hammered down to the same thickness of an exposed tang there would be an equal amount of steel at the junction of blade and tang where the strength is most needed.

What I'd really like to do is find the article I read years and years ago that was written by a well respected and known man of the knife world that convinced me that a properly made hidden tang was just as strong as an exposed tang. Before I read that article I used many of the same arguments that are being used here in the claim that an exposed tang was stronger.

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[Yvsa]

To assume that people won't do something stupid , or that they will always choose the best option, seems rather silly in my mind.

People do all kinds of stupid because they think that it makes them cool, or fashionable, or because they just don't know any better.

????

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[Duzzy]

I'm writing from a phone so I'll keep it breif and hope my spelling is adequate... I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should never assume that a person will pick the "better" of two options. A person will always make the choice they think "best", but without knowing what their goal is--who can say?

I'm not knowledgable enough to argue the point, but it is conceivable (at least in my mind) that a hidden tang could have gained dominance simply because it's easier to turn into "art". Strength could have been secondary. Not saying it was, but the idea isn't that farfetched to me.

Make sense?